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Thread: ATF Rulings, Letters, Opinions.......... and NFA Classifications

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    ATF Rulings, Letters, Opinions.......... and NFA Classifications

    There is a lot of discussion across Internet forums on the impact, meaning, and validity of "ATF Letters" and what/who they apply to, especially when they are used to classify an NFA item . There is also debate on why individuals would write to the ATF in the first place, or keep repeating questions that the ATF already gave an opinion on. The recent letters posted on the Internet that state the classification of an AR pistol can change from a non-NFA pistol to an NFA SBR based on how it is used are causing quite a stir. The recent, unvetted letter says that a Sig Brace is legal on an AR pistol when used as designed, but using the Sig Brace as a stock would create an NFA SBR out of that same pistol.

    That opinion is a direct contradiction of an ATF opinion given by the same individual earlier this year that use, or misuse of an accessory does not change the classification of an AR pistol; specifically the Sgt. Bradley letter that declared it is legal to shoulder an AR-15 pistol, and further stated that accessories like the "Sig Stabilizing Brace" are not stocks and do not change the classification even when misused, as in shouldering an AR 15 pistol equipped with a Sig Brace.

    So what do ATF letters mean when they are addressing an individual's question? Does the opinion only apply to the individual or to the specific items, or combination of items, addressed in the letter? The answer can't be one way when convenient and the other way when unpopular.

    The "ATF letters" are all we have to cite in defense of AR pistols and accessories in many cases. If they only apply to the adressee, then only the adressee can legally use the combination of items adressed by the opinion. The biggest case in point that I am aware of is the legal classification of the AR pistol in the first place. The ATF definition of a pistol can be found on the website and reads:

    "Pistol
    18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(29) and 27 CFR § 478.11
    The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
    a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);

    and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

    declares it is weapon designed, made and intended to be fired (snip) when held in one hand, and having (snip) a short stock designed to be gripped with one hand at an angle to the bore..........

    http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/...inition-pistol

    How does an AR 15 pistol meet that definition? Who believes they are a "weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand?"

    The link below contains ATF rulings and can be argued as an official ATF mandate, unlike the "letters". I can't find anything in it that makes an AR pistol legal. I can deduce that the definition of a rifle maintains it is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder, which an AR pistol is clearly not. But what about that other part that a handgun and pistol are both designed and intended to be fired with one hand?

    https://www.atf.gov/files/regulation...ing-2011-4.pdf

    The first thing I can find is an ATF opinion letter to Mr. Bigbore indicating he can legally build an AR pistol on a virgin receiver. But, it incorrectly refers to AR-15 style "rifle" receivers, probably because it was written prior to the revision to Form 4473 which added "other" to the options. Is this all we have that allows us to build AR pistols? Does it only apply to Mr. Bigbore? Is it worth the paper it is written on? Is there anything "official" from the ATF that allows AR pistols or does this letter have any value to those of us who build pistols.

    Yeah, I know, screw the ATF, the NFA, all politicians,...................etc.

    Last edited by DWood; 12-29-14 at 09:34.
    Go in peace, but be prepared for violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWood View Post
    So what do ATF letters mean when they are addressing an individual's question? Does the opinion only apply to the individual or to the specific items, or combination of items, addressed in the letter? The answer can't be one way when convenient and the other way when unpopular.
    I agree. I also think it's important to distinguish whether an ATF opinion letter is a blanket statement which applies to ALL individuals in some legal fashion, or just the individual being addressed within the letter. I wonder what a lawyer experienced in this division of the law would say on the subject.

    These ATF letters seem to create more problems than they solve. Note the ambiguous wording regarding "readily installed" rifle stocks in paragraph 3 above, as just one example. This is what creates all the emotionally-driven discussion on the subject, but ultimately solves nothing.
    Last edited by sevenhelmet; 12-29-14 at 10:44.
    "We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by sevenhelmet View Post
    I agree. I also think it's important to distinguish whether an ATF opinion letter is a blanket statement which applies to ALL individuals in some legal fashion, or just the individual being addressed within the letter. I wonder what a lawyer experienced in this division of the law would say on the subject.

    These ATF letters seem to create more problems than they solve. Note the ambiguous wording regarding "readily installed" rifle stocks in paragraph 3 above, as just one example. This is what creates all the emotionally-driven discussion on the subject, but ultimately solves nothing.
    If its to much of a burden upon poor people to make the effort to get free state issued IDs to comply voter ID laws I'd sure as hell love the rationale behind how an opinion letter lacking dissemination to the masses holds any collective legal weight, if any at all to begin with. All hypothetical obviously but just the same..

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    I agree with you, I don't think anyone would have a leg to stand on using one of these letters in court, except possibly the individual to whom the letter was addressed. I was just curious if anyone has an actual statement from a lawyer on the subject (NOT a BATF or personal opinion.)
    "We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWood View Post
    So what do ATF letters mean when they are addressing an individual's question? Does the opinion only apply to the individual or to the specific items, or combination of items, addressed in the letter? The answer can't be one way when convenient and the other way when unpopular.
    The BATFE cannot give permission to break the law, and the Constitution does not give them the power to interpret the law. Thus the letters are really useless. It is common Internet folklore they are only binding on the recipient, but that contradicts the Constitution, specifically the 14th amendment. Courts have ruled many times following the illegal advice of a regulatory agency is not a defense to prosecution. The good news is most letters are overly restrictive in nature, not overly permissive.

    About the only use for the letters is to get a clue what BATFE is thinking, or areas to go for further research. I know several BATFE agents as well as a AUSA that have laughed heartily at some of these opinions, knowing they would never arrest or prosecute.

    For me, they are only good for entertainment value. When I need clarification on whether something I want to do is a felony or not, I consult my own expert legal counsel, NOT counsel paid for by the agency that will prosecute me. That is what is called "Conflict Of Interest".

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    Sounds like sage advice. This also articulates far better than me, why I will never seek an ATF opinion on anything.
    "We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -Benjamin Franklin

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    Excepting that Sig has already won two lawsuits regarding the legality of the Brace.
    "Those who do can't explain; those who don't can't understand"...

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    [content removed]
    Last edited by softorchestra; 01-05-15 at 21:40. Reason: I did remove my sig brace...
    so

    I refuse to participate in online forums which do not show respect to the members or their freedom of speech.

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    The point of starting this thread was that it is only through ATF letters that some accessories like the various braces are allowed on AR pistols in the first place. If Alex Bosco did not request the first approval, the Sig Brace would most likely be considered a stock and a pistol wearing one would be an unregistered SBR. And if a "maker" was going to r3egister one, why would he put a brace on lt rather than a stock?

    The legality of AR 15 pistols in general does not seem to be defined by the NFA or GCA, but rather through opinion letters like the one I posted. According to the law a pistol is designed and intended to be fired with one hand. In my opinion, if the ATF letters are worthless, then AR piostols would not be legal. Therefore, the letters are an administrative interpretation clarifying the legality of a gun / accessory combo that is not clearly defined by the law. Sgt. Bradley only asked if shouldering an AR pistol is legal. It was the ATF that volunteered the information on misusing the Sig Brace in their opinion to him.

    IMO, without the letters, AR pistols and braces would not be legal to own without going through the NFA process. And if you go through the NFA, then you would make an SBR. The problem is the letters don't get disseminated, can't be researched, and have now become so contradictory that none of it is clear.
    Last edited by DWood; 12-29-14 at 14:45.
    Go in peace, but be prepared for violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skydivr View Post
    Excepting that Sig has already won two lawsuits regarding the legality of the Brace.
    There are two ATF opinion letters on the Sig Brace, neither one of which was actually written to Sig. The initial approval letter was written to the inventor, Alex Bosco. The letter stating that shouldering the Sig Brace did not reclassify a pistol as an SBR was written to a police officer, Sgt. Bradley, inquiring about the legality of shouldering an AR pistol.

    Neither of these were lawsuits.
    Go in peace, but be prepared for violence.

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