C-clamp grip, hype or not?

[jwinch2]

http://loadoutroom.com/5695/the-over...p-hype-or-not/

I enjoyed this discussion of the c-clamp grip, and thought that perhaps others would as well.

Cheers,

[26 Inf]

It was interesting.

The author quoted 'physics and the natural way out body moves' several times but other than 'equal and opposite reaction' doesn't seem to under stand the subject, completely ignoring the concepts of fulcrums and levers, which kind of does impact the way weapons recoil, although not as serious an omission when talking of the AR.

With the support arm extended straight(er) you have created a triangle containing the shoulders (base) the extended arm and the weapon; this triangle interacts with the triangle created by the weapon (base) mounted into the shoulder, the strong arm from shoulder to elbow forming another leg of the triangle, and the lower arm from elbow to weapon forming the third leg. The 'wobbliest' point of these two triangles is the elbow of the strong arm.

With support arm bent, there are actually 3 triangles - weapon, support arm, shoulder along one plane; weapon, lower support arm, and upper support arm along another plane, and the same triangle as is formed by the strong arm and weapon interface. Two 'wobbly' elbow points.

You won't be able to drive the weapon as rapidly and accurately from one target to another with the arms bent because of the 'wobblies' - the triangles aren't as stable.

It gets worse with a vertical fore grip. The fact that most folks only run them because their handguards/tubes are loaded with other stuff, doesn't change that fact, the vertical fore grip is a compromise.

Now, if you go prone you can build a much more stable position with both arms bent using the ground as support. It forms the base of a third triangle which gives stability.

Likewise, in the offhand position, the shooter uses their body to brace the bases of the two triangles (skeletal support).

Get a good position shooting book/manual, look at the angles, and maybe what I wrote will make some iota of sense.

The peripheral vision thing, is kind of meh to me. I try to mount the weapon higher into my shoulder instead of burying it lower into the shoulder. This allows my head to be more erect and also increases my vision to my support side.

His statement regarding "flicking off" shooters doesn't take into account the reality of our ingrained response to threats, we are focused on the primary threat, take care of it, break focus on it, look for another, etc. The reality is that when you are shooting through an optic or sights your field of vision is narrowed and your peripheral vision is limited.

If I'm looking for threats, the weapon is lowered.

All in all, an interesting article, I just didn't agree with the points I mentioned.

[hogarth]

Being a little guy, I always found my arms too short to utilize the more extreme versions of those Costa - like positions.

I must say, though (with the caveat that I have never been in any sort of combat), that I think the need to drive the gun from target to target seems more game oriented than combat focused. Realistically, if you are taking on multiple bad guys, you had better have a partner (or ten) with you, because even if you can shoot as fast as Haley, bad guy number 3 is going to be filling you with holes while you are shooting 1 and 2.

I definitely agree with the article in that it's tough to maintain that grip for any length of time, like patrolling around, clearing a building, etc.

Just me $.02

[T2C]

Interesting article. The "c-clamp" technique does have it's uses.

It is not a new concept. There was a thread on M4C some time back that had an old photograph, possibly early 1970's vintage, of troops using the technique to shoot their FAL's.

[Arctic1]

A couple of observations.

Having the support hand extended further out on the handguard helps with two things:

-Target transitions - horisontal and vertical transitions
-Recoil control - it helps during rapids strings of fire while firing standing offhand

Being skilled at those two elements of shooting is just as relevant for combat as it is for competition.

Re patrolling, the ready position will vary based on threat level, likelihood of enemy contact and terrain. A low ready, ie optic just below line of sight is not used the majority of the time.

Here is a pic of me using a normal patrol ready:



If you note my hand position, it is in the same place when I shoot as well:



The author's attempt to counter the argument regarding reduced muzzle flip neglects to take into account what actually causes muzzle flip.

Of course, there is more to shooting than support hand placement, but for certain engagement types it helps to have it extended further out.

[Achilles11B]

I wouldn't call the c-clamp, or thumb-over-bore grip, hype. It has its place, but isn't the end-all, be-all for every situation. It works for me, for engaging targets at CQB-distances quickly and accurately. Maybe others on here will have better results with other techniques, and that's ok. Everyone's different, find out what works best for you and train, train, train.

[SOW_0331]

There seems to be a misconception that gripping your rifle as far out on the handguards/rails is the same as the new, flashy, and carbine course taught C-Clamp. The popularity of a certain instructor may have brought it into the home a lot more noticeably but it's been around for a bit.

As 26 Inf pointed out in that outstanding post, the benefits are hard to really deny in the sense that physics are undeniable. A triangle is going to be stronger the closer to 90/45/45 you can get. And as Arctic pointed out in another great informative post, it's very beneficial to combat and patrolling to contact which is hardly a "game" mentality. In the end what really matters is applying the fundamentals and being able to quickly and efficiently put multiple rounds on a target, verifying that he is deader than dead, and finding the next guy to deaden before he finds you. This has been going on in mil circles for a long time, and knowing which course it was likely taught to the other guy, it's pretty easy to see where Costa learned it. We were doing with M4s and I was taught that for the 240 in unconventional shooting positions; shooting from the hip, standing, etc.

I can understand the pushback though. I see it like throwing a football or a frisbee. Most people will never have a hard time throwing towards someone and will swear up and down their way works. And it does work if that's what they're basing their success off, just like the guy who shoots cans with his BushMaster at 25 yards by gripping the magwell will tell you THAT works. But you won't make it into anything beyond high school football if you don't start welcoming the benefits of hand and finger placement on the ball, pointing your toe at your intended receiver, and the finer points for throwing to a nearby receiver or one way deep, and everything in between. It's the same with the forward grip. It's not the only way, it's not even the absolute best. It's just better than what most people are doing, it's fast and stable and it works. Hard to deny that the closer your control point (hand) is to the source of the energy (muzzle) that causes muzzle rise/movement, the faster you'll be able to minimize the impact and lessen it's effect on your sight picture.

Like everything though, if it's not done right and for the right application, you're probably better off not doing it at all. If you look at how a lot of class shooters do it, it essentially is gaming it and really doesn't benefit anyone like that in real world use. Like scanning your surroundings and looking over your shoulder, the more you worry about completing the function to beat the shot timer, the less good it's doing. Anyone can dramatically whip their head back and forth to look cool, if they're not taking in their surroundings, it's useless and irrelevant and can become dangerous if you've already been confronted with an attacker at your direct front. Or the exaggerated pistol draw, tracing the zipper (or whatever they call it now) and punching out into your shooting stance. It was developed to teach shooters that keeping the pistol close to body will lessen the chance of a bad guy stopping your arm on the rise or taking your weapon from you, which is cool and all, but I don't think there's too many competent shooters out there who can't tell if they're standing two feet in front of someone or not. Yet there's the tactical shooters, dramatically following every stage of the movement on the draw to engage a 20 yard silhouette. When the focus is on mimicking the patented method of a group or individual and not on practical application of skills and techniques when needed, it can be counterproductive.

As with those examples, the C-Grip is usually shitty and pointless. Guys looking like Stretch Armstrong got their hand under and back over the rail to look cool enough like the beard-clippings-auctioneer guy are going to lose out. My grip is more of a thumb over rail, with my index finger extended alongside the rail pointing straight. It's almost instinctive. Point that front finger at target, engage. As long as I don't overthink it, I'll hit where I point all day. It helps reduce fatigue when carrying for extended periods if times (patrolling, movements, etc) where I'm not going to be carrying at the ready all day anyway and, by pointing at and rapidly engaging a target/bad guy as it appears, I can out an accurate initial grouping without being limited to only firing with the stock in my shoulder.

Find what works for you though, and see if you can modify the teaching points and theories to fit your individual preference. Short arms aren't going to reach the end of the rail, don't give up eye relief just to grip it where Cool Cola holds his. Short rails won't allow for too much of that either, part of the reason I like longer rails which allows me to have a mid length gas system on all my rifles for even more control. A larger, tubbier shooter might not be able to cross their arms across their chest enough to achieve that stance without ending up turned sideways. Don't buy into any one grip or style as every situation is as different as the shooter himself. Don't be afraid to try something new either, lest you become that guy that in 2014 still thinks the mil should have stayed with the Garand/M14, because pappy said it killed Vietcong all day...even though pappy wasn't in the war at all.

[T2C]

SOW_0331 should love this.

I teach the Support Hand Index Technique (S.H.I.T) to shoot AR carbines on the rare occasion I teach a course. It is part of the S.W.A.P. (Shit that Works for A lot of People) segment of the carbine course.

Today I used the S.H.I.T. to fire my M1 Garand at 1-15 yards after a few hours of shooting at longer ranges. Like he alluded the C-Clamp technique is not suitable for all cases and in my case the C-Clamp technique would obscure the front sight. The S.H.I.T. requires indexing the support hand thumb forward along side the stock with the end of the thumb pointing at the target. I also use this technique when shooting two other dinosaurs at speed, the M1 Carbine and the 1903A3.

The S.H.I.T. works well at managing the recoil of the Garand when rapidly engaging targets at CQB distances. The AR carbine is a fine CQB firearm, but I am one of the old bastards that likes shooting the Garand.

The only downside of the day is that I expended one and a half 200 round cans of HXP ball that I purchased from CMP, which at 65 cents per round makes for an expensive day on a retired budget.

[SeriousStudent]

God, I love shooting a Garand.

Unfortunately, my grip has gone from S.H.I.T to C.R.A.P. (Completely Relaxed As Possible) That barrel wiggles all over the place.

I gotta be doing something wrong.

[T2C]

God, I love shooting a Garand.

Unfortunately, my grip has gone from S.H.I.T to C.R.A.P. (Completely Relaxed As Possible) That barrel wiggles all over the place.

I gotta be doing something wrong.

If you don't mind, I am going to steal your acronym and use it in class.