How many signatures required on trust?

[GeorgeB]

Pretty bad idea to try to go this far down the road of "do it yourself" on a Trust, IMHO.

[exkc135driver]

...
As for lining everyone up, just sign your part/get it notarized, and pass it on to the next person and repeat; it's not like everyone has to be there at one time.

Not necessarily true. In some states everyone does have to be there at the same time.

[jmoney]

Not necessarily true. In some states everyone does have to be there at the same time.

Thats exactly right, and that issue alone can often invalidate an entire trust/will in some states. There are a lot of quicken users who learned this lesson the hard way....

[mr fixit]

STOP, HIRE an ATTORNEY
Oh wait, sounds like you are smarter than all of them, yet stupid enough to use a boilerplate trust without making the necessary adjustments to ensure proper satisfaction of the Texas code, most of which cannot be gleaned by a cursory reading of the statute. Additionally, you are asking EXTREMELY basic questions which means you definitely do not understand what needs to be done to boilerplate trust to actually make it workable, valid, and enforceable. And I'm absolutely positive you understand how to adjust the trust depending on the circumstances surrounding your potential beneficiaries as well. I have spent so much time undoing the damage that people, JUST LIKE YOU, have done just because they think they are so damn smart. You are dealing with things that can cost you thousands of dollars and possible federal prison time, not just for you, but for any of your beneficiaries as well. But its ok, you would rather be arrogant than talk to someone who understands probate law, does it for a living, and probably only charges $300-500 to ensure your property that will be worth well over $1000 is properly taken care of.

I'm thinking you are an attorney, based on your statement of " I have spent so much time undoing the damage that people, JUST LIKE YOU, have done just because they think they are so damn smart."

If you are, you have reinforced one of my beliefs and a stereotype of attorneys. But really whether you are or not is not the issue. Honestly, you could have convinced me that I needed an attorney (if in fact I do) if you had explained anything. But you went right to calling me stupid, and in fact insulting many potential clients. You know, those people "Just like me". And what a chance you had too...... On every gun forum I've ever seen that had an NFA or Suppressor section, the question is always asked in one form or another of "what is the difference in my DIY trust and the one I pay an attorney for?" You had an awesome chance to tell me, as well as anyone else on this forum and those that find this thread via search engine, what the issues are. You didn't even have to be specific to the point of explaining exactly how. You could have listed several things that a DIY trust usually doesn't have.

But you didn't.

You know the stereotypical view of attorneys is that they don't really give a crap about the clients, they only care about getting paid. They use fear mongering and trying to convince people they are not smart enough to do things on their own. Thanks for reinforcing that, not just to me, but to everyone else who will ever read this here. By the way, what does the "Lawyer Super Decoder Ring" look like that you use to read the information no normal person could handle?

And really, if you wanted to insult, you missed a good one. I expected someone to point out that I'm trying to "DIY" without a lawyer by using a trust that was in fact created by a lawyer. You could have had some fun with that by pointing out that "im so smart but have to use a template from a lawyer'. Oh but wait, that's what most of the lawyers do isn't it? Don't many use a template form that a lawyer in Florida developed? Or the ones in Texas that do these NFA trusts, are you telling me that they don't get out the template they use every time and 'fill in the blanks' of the specifics each time? Is each and every trust a completely new and unique document? Then how can they get done by making a phone call, and answering a few questions?

There are many things that I would in fact go to a lawyer for, and never consider doing myself. But an honest man would admit that in at least some cases, a trust doesn't have to be one of them.


I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant. Neither of those was my intention. To those who have tried to answer my question, thank you very much.

[mr fixit]

Maybe to answer my own question and help others out who might have the same or similar questions:

As I understand it, there is a lawyer in Florida who specializes in NFA and Firearms trust. Somehow, sometime, he/she/they developed a trust 'template' if you will and have 'partnered' to some extent with lawyers in other states. Those states lawyers use the template from the lawyer in Florida.

Now, Florida requires that for a trust to be valid, it must be executed with the same formalities as a Will in Florida. A Florida Will requires 2 witnesses, so a Florida trust requires 2 witnesses.

What I assume has happened is that since it is required in Florida, and since 'extra' stuff doesn't negate the trust in other states, many of the other states lawyers use that template with signatures that are not needed.

I can find in the Florida statues where the 2 witnesses are required. In the Texas statutes I can find in the Estate Code where witnesses are required for a Will. But the Property Code says nothing about either requiring witnesses, or meeting the requirements of a Will.

I'm convinced that in Texas, there is no requirement for the 2 witnesses on the Trust.

[jmoney]

On every gun forum I've ever seen that had an NFA or Suppressor section, the question is always asked in one form or another of "what is the difference in my DIY trust and the one I pay an attorney for?"

Because that is asking for legal advice over the internet, which is never, ever, going to happen. I'm not going to tell you that all attorneys are geniuses. Especially in the past, there are some people that I can't imagine how they became attorneys. That is changing pretty rapidly now as the difficulty has risen dramatically, but that doesn't change the fact that you are asking questions that people spend decades to create proper trust.

If you actually read my post, which you clearly didn't, then you would see exactly where I pointed out the difference. DIY is a boilerplate form, an attorney actually takes that form, makes the trust legal for your state (they don't work across all states uniformly), then adds the necessary clauses to make sure the trust is properly suited to your exact needs, which is highly dependent on the circumstances unique to each persons needs. Boilerplate forms get so many people in trouble, it is amazing that they are still legal to sell them. Those DIY forms and will programs have costs people their entire life savings, incredibly botched wills, and thousands and thousands of dollars in legal fees to clean up the mess. The gun shops that are giving them out and helping people fill them in are actually practicing law without a license, and there have been cases where people have gotten into pretty serious legal issues because of the garbage forms they have used.


But like I said, it is clear you already have your opinions settled and know better. Once again. Stop what you are doing, and find an attorney, one that specializes in probate (specifically that has experience in gun trusts) and get your trust completed and have them walk you through all the formalities, which includes the question you are asking. Which as others have also eluded to, there are weird requirements that can actually invalidate the entire trust and or will, which could result in serious trouble for you.

I don't practice probate, I practice criminal law. However, I know enough about probate to know (a) I would never have tried to do my gun trust on my own (b) that many of the junk wills/trusts I have seen are garbage from a 15 minute review of them, or they flat out invalid. That is just how bad some of them are. The ATF doesn't know the difference, and it won't matter for most people until the trust is settled, but at that point you are usually cooked. However, I did spend a good chunk of time doing probate work with a law firm while waiting for my law results. Like I said before, nearly EVERY issue came from people using DIY Forms and thinking they somehow beat the system and saved a few bucks. One person in particular spent $20 on a form will for his dad, and $17,000 in legal fees after the court tossed out the will and used intestate succession.

Again. You are making a trust that deals with highly regulated NFA items, worth thousands of dollars. An error in these trusts due to mistake of law is not going to save you at all. Are you really so arrogant that you won't contact someone who does this for a living?

[jmoney]

Those states lawyers use the template from the lawyer in Florida.

Yes, and then they alter it significantly to make it compatible with Texas law, then they walk you through all formalities that must be completed in order make the trust valid and enforceable. The template that they use is mostly just the center section that deals with the trust property, and even that has NUMEROUS formations that are dependent on the parties involved and the goals they want to achieve....

[mr fixit]

Jmoney,
thanks for the reply with reasons. And for the record, I never said I was "so smart", I only said I was smarter than some of the lawyers I know. I mean come on, you said it yourself that you couldn't understand how some of them passed. And really I'm not arrogant, it hurts my feelings that you think I am.

I guess I was not clear in my first post, I should have made it easier to understand what I meant I suppose. When I said I had a copy of a trust to use as a template, what I meant was I have a copy of an actual trust belonging to a 'buddy' of mine. It was done by an attorney, in Texas, and has been used for a while to get all kinds of shooty NFA goodness. He has offered to give it to me as well as several other people he knows. I have no idea how many have used it.

So really, to make your point, I am not 'stupid enough to use a boiler plate trust'.
Or, am I making your point that I am smart? I'm so confused sometimes.

So as far as using a 'template', I am changing the names, addresses, dates, trustees, location of the NFA items and funding (just from memory, there may be other changes I had to make), much like an attorney would do and leaving the 'center section' alone.

[SeriousStudent]

Now that everybody has made their points, let's all lower the temperatures, shall we?

Thanks muchly.

[jwfuhrman]

Now that everybody has made their points, let's all lower the temperatures, shall we?

Thanks muchly.

But, but, but, its cold here and this thread was just starting to warm everything up.....

Seriously tho, spend the extra money and have an attorney, especially one who specializes in the NFA world, setup the trust. Might cost a little bit more but if a standard Form 1 or Form 4 is such a hassle, just spend the money.