Vector 45 SBR vs. Other Pistol Caliber SBRs

[Naphtali]

I've read a LOT of people reporting FTE / FTF problems with their Vector 45s, but I'm really interested in buying a very short ( ~ 24" or so) SBR in a pistol caliber. Kriss' "almost no recoil" thing appealed to me, but it seems their company is too new / small to really get the whole engineering / bugfixing part of making a firearm down the way HK etc. do. Thay haven't sold a ton, and there are lots of problems as above on forums, and no mil or LEOs have adopted them.

BUT... HK can't sell their UMPs etc. b/c they have all German parts and are therefore illegal for civilians to own in the U.S. (post-ban).

Does anyone know of a SBR fitting the above criteria that is made by a reputable company? A huge bonus is if the weapon is actually fielded by some mil or major LEO organization that has presumably worked the bugs out. Also, a factory new gun is a must.

As an aside, I'm looking for a niche weapon here for collection / fun purposes- suggesting that I get other types of weapons would not be helpful feedback. But I want one in theory that's usable if SHTF, so unreliable weapons / companies are a no-go.

[scottryan]

MKE will be importing another batch of MP-5s. You could get one as a pistol and SBR it.

Also look at getting a 9mm Colt and getting a short barrel for it.

These two options will be the most trouble free.

A Kriss is a novelty collector piece.

[signal4l]

You might want to check out the Lone Wolf carbines. They use Glock mags.

We used to issue the 9mm Colt Sporters as patrol carbines. I had persistent issues with the mags.

[KalashniKEV]

MKE will be importing another batch of MP-5s. You could get one as a pistol and SBR it.

Also look at getting a 9mm Colt and getting a short barrel for it.

These two options will be the most trouble free.

A Kriss is a novelty collector piece.

This.

Or Scorpion EVO.

...or maybe see how the MPX works out for SIG.

[kaltesherz]

MKE will be importing another batch of MP-5s.

Any more details on this? I've been dreaming of a MP5 SBR for awhile...

[SteyrAUG]

Add the B&T TP9 to the list of "problem free" SBRs.

[Barfly76]

Any more details on this? I've been dreaming of a MP5 SBR for awhile...

Zenith Quest Corporation will be importing them, expecting to hit dealers in 2015.

http://zenithfirearms.com/firearms/pistols/

[Naphtali]

Zenith Quest Corporation will be importing them, expecting to hit dealers in 2015.

http://zenithfirearms.com/firearms/pistols/

Has Zenith proven themselves with either (1) large contracts with mil / LEOs, or (2) extremely heavy civilian sales / use in the absence of #1, in which (3) a sufficient length of time has passed in which heavy use has occurred without ongoing issues?

Any firearm that doesn't meet 1-3 isn't one that I would use if SHTF.

Look at Kriss, whose Vector 45 is all sorts of unreliable (they actually admit that the gun is NOT designed to reliably extract an unfired round with the magazine in... wtf???). Or Glock with the later Gen 3s and all Gen 4s that used to have (and to some extent still do have) significant extractor / ejector problems. Or S&W's M&Ps in 9mm and .40 which had major accuracy problems until they figured out a fix a year or so ago. Or Sig, whose across-the-board quality has become abysmal since Ron Cohen became President / CEO in the mid 2000s (several SEALs I spoke with this year who were assistant trainers at a weekend carbine course I took, say there is some concern about what they're going to do when their issued P226s, which were mostly made in the 1990s before Sig went to sh1t, need to be replaced).

The major manufacturers - with many decades of experience - often botch new weapons or significant revisions to old weapons. And these botches often don't come to light for months or years (e.g. major Glock 9mm BTF issues can be first seen only after 1,500 rounds, after which time they remain incessant even after multiple return trips to Glock). So how do you know you can trust Zenith?

If you're not using a weapon that has been proven on a large scale for at least several years in a wide variety of environmental challenges, with no recent re-engineering done to that proven product, then you're beta testing that weapon. I'm still a little nervous carrying my VP9 for this exact reason, because I recognize I'm beta testing it. The main reason I choose to trust it is that H&K has (imo) by far the best R&D / engineering dept of any firearm manufacturer, so a newly-released H&K is historically more reliable than a new weapon from (or even a minor revision to a previously proven) Glock / S&W / Sig etc.

[Barfly76]

ZQ is importer. MKE is the manufacturer. They are building them using HK tooling. It is the closest you are going to get to a HK MP5 style firearm.

[Naphtali]

ZQ is importer. MKE is the manufacturer. They are building them using HK tooling. It is the closest you are going to get to a HK MP5 style firearm.

Which is why I'm coming to realize that a U.S. civilian cannot buy a well-proven and short pistol caliber SBR. All of the ones made by reputable companies with good adoption by mil / LEOs are like H&K, where you can't even buy the semi-auto versions in the U.S since the late 1980s.

Buying a pre-ban weapon (1) costs a fortune and (2) the person you're buying it from could have abused or neglected it in significant ways that aren't immediately obvious at the time of purchase.

I'm starting to resign myself to just buying a 10.3" Colt SBR with a mini Surefire SOCOM suppressor. That's about as short as it's going to get (29" length) with a well-proven system. A shame you have to suppress an SBR that short or else you go deaf indoors even with muffs on, which is why I was going for the pistol caliber route initially. But on the flip side, the rifle rounds' temporary cavities (at least the good rounds mentioned on the Self Defense Ammo FAQ) create far more tissue destruction than any pistol caliber. I'd much rather hit some adrenalized intruder on PCP with high quality .223 than .45 HP. Your wound cavity diameter is 4.6" with the rifle and 1" (usually less) with the pistol (see the above FAQ and Doc GKR's ballistic gelatin info)... that's over 21 (twenty-one) times the damage per shot for the rifle vs the .45 (at least in the first 6" or so of the projectile path where the rifle round creates a temporary cavity that disrupts tissue).

CALCULATION FOR ABOVE:
Wound channel size = Pi x r^2. r = 1/2 diameter.
.223 = 3.14 x 2.3" x 2.3" = 16.6 square inches of cross-sectional area of the wound cavity. Properly functioning rifle rounds have a large temp cavity that destroys tissue.
.45 HP = 3.14 x 0.5" x 0.5" = 0.78 square inches of cross-sectional area of the wound cavity. Pistol rounds in all calibers do not create any temp cavity capable of damaging tissue.
16.6 / 0.78 = 21.3 times larger wound cavity per shot for the rifle in the first 6 to 7" of the projectile path.
** Granted, the temporary cavity for the rifle tapers at both ends, so overall volume of tissue damage is probably half of the number in the calculation (the calculation would be for a cylinder of destruction with no tapered ends), so it winds up being more like 10 times the damage per shot compared to the .45 HP. And this is for QUALITY .223 ammo that consistently upsets / mushrooms, with no icepicking / fleet-yaw issue.

My main regret is that there's just such a big difference between taking corners with 24" vs 29" of weapon length, especially through narrower doorways...