Suppressor approved...gun shop went out of buisness. What to do now?

[Eurodriver]

Did said friend actually purchase the suppressor from the dealer? If he forked out a grand for the can and the payment was processed, how can it be said he doesn't "own" it? He would have paid for the can, paid the $200 tax stamp to have been approved... So gun shop owner gets to keep the money and the can? That doesn't make sense...

I do not know anything about NFA laws as they pertain to FFLs and I won't pretend to. What I'm speaking of is strictly business transactions.

If the suppressor was liquidated during the bankruptcy, what can anyone do at this point?

If he still has the can, that's a different story. But you were unearned revenue - a liability. Just like all of his debt. The bankruptcy absolved him of that. His business was probably formed under a now defunct LLC that provides personal protection from the owner anyway.

Your options are limited, OP. If you paid with a CC initiate a charge back. Your friend can't sue him because it wasn't him that was the entity that did the sale. You can't get a suppressor that he doesn't have. Think of it like this:

A business owns a machine that is financed by a signature loan. The business goes under and they sell the machine to bobs machine store. The business files bankruptcy. The bank can't get the machine or their money back, legally.

All of this assumes he does not have the can anymore. If he does, then the ATF will be the one to contact, but I doubt they can do anything. It's still his can. He doesn't have to transfer it.

The 90 days sinister refers to is the amount of time that it can be transferred before having to reapply. Not some deadline dealers must adhere to for legal reasons.

[domestique]

This was from a local business and that had been established for around 2 years or so. The suppressor was in stock at the time of purchase.

Gotcha,

how much are we talking here?

Most small claims court fees cost 100-200 dollars to file, I believe there is also a grace period on filing with regards to bankruptcy.

Another option is your State's consumer protection agency.

A lot will be state dependent, and your friend will have to decide if the trouble is worth the money lost.

[Koshinn]

File a police report. It's theft.

[domestique]

Also,

The local PD didn't want to give me the time of day UNTIL there were others that came forward. I would have your friend contact the local ranges, forums etc to find others that are out of money. Then go to the local PD. Chances are he broke some laws while liquidating sold assets. In my particular case the owner was keeping consigned gun sales without paying back the original owners.

[skijunkie55]

I do not know anything about NFA laws as they pertain to FFLs and I won't pretend to. What I'm speaking of is strictly business transactions.

If the suppressor was liquidated during the bankruptcy, what can anyone do at this point?

If he still has the can, that's a different story. But you were unearned revenue - a liability. Just like all of his debt. The bankruptcy absolved him of that. His business was probably formed under a now defunct LLC that provides personal protection from the owner anyway.

Your options are limited, OP. If you paid with a CC initiate a charge back. Your friend can't sue him because it wasn't him that was the entity that did the sale. You can't get a suppressor that he doesn't have. Think of it like this:

A business owns a machine that is financed by a signature loan. The business goes under and they sell the machine to bobs machine store. The business files bankruptcy. The bank can't get the machine or their money back, legally.

All of this assumes he does not have the can anymore. If he does, then the ATF will be the one to contact, but I doubt they can do anything. It's still his can. He doesn't have to transfer it.

The 90 days sinister refers to is the amount of time that it can be transferred before having to reapply. Not some deadline dealers must adhere to for legal reasons.

So with OP's friend being the owner of the suppressor by way of 1. buying it, and 2. having it transferred to him via Form 4 which is currently approved making him the legal owner of the item, how would he not have any legal ground to take him to court over this? If the guy bought the can and has the approved form 4, would not the dealer just be a storage locker for his suppressor at this point? The FFL / SOT is the "holder" of the suppressor until it get's into the owners hands. His storefront going out of business shouldn't have anything to do with that, and he shouldn't be able to sell something that is now registered to someone else? That would be like a self-storage company taking my motorcycle and selling it because they went bankrupt, while it sits in a unit I am currently renting from them.

Maybe I'm just oversimplifying this? Regardless, this sucks and I hope the guy at least gets his money back...

[Eurodriver]

It comes down to this:

Was the business an LLC or some other entity that has limited liability for the owners?

Does the LLC have any assets left?

If the answer to #1 is Yes, and #2 No, then you really can't do much.

If he can claim fraud (which, given the lack of understanding Of the NFA process by everyone, is very difficult) he can pierce the corporate veil and go after the owners assets.

But is the battle worth it? By the time you have hired a lawyer and waited for a court date you could have paid for and received a new can at that point. I'm all about taking it to the man and sticking it to him, but that's a road I wouldn't bother taking.

[jmnielsen]

Wouldn't a big factor be whether or not the Form 4 was approved before or after he went out of business? If it was before he went under and went out of business I'm assuming he would be in deep shit for selling a suppressor that wasn't his.

[domestique]

It comes down to this:

Was the business an LLC or some other entity that has limited liability for the owners?

Does the LLC have any assets left?

If the answer to #1 is Yes, and #2 No, then you really can't do much.

If he can claim fraud (which, given the lack of understanding Of the NFA process by everyone, is very difficult) he can pierce the corporate veil and go after the owners assets.

But is the battle worth it? By the time you have hired a lawyer and waited for a court date you could have paid for and received a new can at that point. I'm all about taking it to the man and sticking it to him, but that's a road I wouldn't bother taking.

Not sure how it is in NC, but in PA the courts have really been cracking down on LLC'S. Gone are the days of screwing people over, closing a business and then opening another one the next day.

OP, did your buddy talk with the local ATF office yet?

[Renegade]

If the Form 4 was approved he's supposed to have 90 days to transfer it, otherwise he's in illegal possession. I'm not a lawyer.

No such time limit. Hence why ATF told him to "pound sand".

OP you need to find out who has silencer. IF dealer no longer has it, that is a big problem. If he has it, you need to charm him into transferring it to you. Keep in mind if you piss him off, he can legally cancel the stamp. Then you get nothing.

[Eurodriver]

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but...
http://www.atg.wa.gov/outofbiz.aspx#.VId4HTg5C70 (For Washington state, but applies federally)

WHEN A STORE OWES YOU MONEY OR MERCHANDISE

If you paid for merchandise or services you haven’t received, talk to the store’s owner about receiving a refund or your order. Many businesses will try to make good on the deal. Unfortunately, we’ve also received complaints from consumers who never received their custom-designed furniture, as well as couples who were denied refunds when the venue they reserved for their wedding declared bankruptcy before they exchanged their vows.

Tip: Prevent problems by paying small deposits. When you order merchandise that will be delivered in the future, such as furniture or a bridal gown, a store usually asks for a deposit. Always ask the retailer the minimum deposit it will accept. Pay with a credit card because laws provide you with safeguards if the business fails to deliver the merchandise.

If you paid for your merchandise by credit card, you can request a refund of your deposit from the credit card issuer. The procedures to request a "chargeback" are explained on the back of your credit card statement.
If the business has filed for bankruptcy, you can file a claim with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court where the business filed to try to recover what you’re owed.

Bankruptcy law spells out who gets paid first from any available assets. Administrative costs for the bankruptcy case are first in line. Next are "secured creditors" whose claims are secured by the business' property or other assets. Farther down in priority are "unsecured creditors;” as a consumer creditor who has paid for goods never received, you're ordinarily in that category. You may receive all, some or none of your deposit. Consumers should weigh the potential benefits of a successful or partially successful claim against the inconvenience and expense of pursuing the claim.

You usually have only 90 days from the bankruptcy filing date to file a claim. Contact the clerk of the bankruptcy court to obtain a standard "proof of claim" form. You can also download one at http://www.uscourts.gov/bkforms. You’ll need to know the identifying name and number of the bankruptcy case and provide copies of receipts and records.

Wouldn't a big factor be whether or not the Form 4 was approved before or after he went out of business? If it was before he went under and went out of business I'm assuming he would be in deep shit for selling a suppressor that wasn't his.

It wouldn't be a factor at all.

Based on a quick Google search, the op's friend is in a situation that is relatively common and I can't find a single situation where the owner had bounced out of town and was forced to pay back money or give the suppressor back. I am not an attorney, but I did take a statewide test that says I know a little bit about how companies and bankruptcies work. I like delivering good news, but the OP's buddy is up a creek without a paddle financially. The ATF might be able to pursue criminal charges (unlikely), but that doesn't put a penny in his pocket. Given that it's "super evil silencer" related, he might have a decent shot at piercing the corporate veil, but at what cost?