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Thread: Suppressor approved...gun shop went out of buisness. What to do now?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    I do not know anything about NFA laws as they pertain to FFLs and I won't pretend to. What I'm speaking of is strictly business transactions.

    If the suppressor was liquidated during the bankruptcy, what can anyone do at this point?

    If he still has the can, that's a different story. But you were unearned revenue - a liability. Just like all of his debt. The bankruptcy absolved him of that. His business was probably formed under a now defunct LLC that provides personal protection from the owner anyway.

    Your options are limited, OP. If you paid with a CC initiate a charge back. Your friend can't sue him because it wasn't him that was the entity that did the sale. You can't get a suppressor that he doesn't have. Think of it like this:

    A business owns a machine that is financed by a signature loan. The business goes under and they sell the machine to bobs machine store. The business files bankruptcy. The bank can't get the machine or their money back, legally.

    All of this assumes he does not have the can anymore. If he does, then the ATF will be the one to contact, but I doubt they can do anything. It's still his can. He doesn't have to transfer it.

    The 90 days sinister refers to is the amount of time that it can be transferred before having to reapply. Not some deadline dealers must adhere to for legal reasons.

    And who would this be liquidated to? A bank?

    A bank can't have legal possession of it.

    The silencer is legally the transferee's on the Form 4.

    The silencer has been paid for and the transfer is approved. Everything else about bankruptcy law is irrelevant.
    Last edited by scottryan; 12-09-14 at 20:02.
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  2. #22
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    Scott,

    Your pm box is full......
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    And who would this be liquidated to? A bank?

    A bank can't have legal possession of it.

    The silencer is legally the transferee's on the Form 4.

    The silencer has been paid for and the transfer is approved. Everything else about bankruptcy law is irrelevant.
    Agreed. Once the can was in process on the Form 4 for the buyer, it could never be transferred to another entity without the Form 4 being cancelled.

    I am very interested in where all of the dealer's inventory now resides. The local ATF office should be the only one's able of taking possession of the inventory and dispersing for the bank handling the bankruptcy. They would also have taken possession of the dealer's A&D book and all completed 4473s.

    Has your friend tried contacting the local ATF office. They should be contacted immediately if not.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    And who would this be liquidated to? A bank?

    A bank can't have legal possession of it.

    The silencer is legally the transferee's on the Form 4.

    The silencer has been paid for and the transfer is approved. Everything else about bankruptcy law is irrelevant.
    If the suppressor is legally the transferee's why does a 4473 need to be filled out? The OP's buddy (from hereon referred to as OPB) does not own the suppressor.

    What's actually irrelevant is all of this back-and-forth banter because whether we agree or not doesn't change OPB never seeing his money or suppressor. I'm not at all referring to the criminal aspect to all this, just talking about what Aaron's main man can expect. If the dealer isn't intimidated by certified letters from attorneys there isn't shit anyone can do without spending many thousands of dollars on an attorney, piercing the corporate veil, and going after personal assets. Period.

    If the company went out of business without proof of gross (or even ordinary) negligence, then the veil stays and he can pound sand like everyone else the LLC owed money to.

    Good reading here from someone in a similar situation that consulted an attorney:

    I'm afraid I have to agree with you, James K. I must had a long discussion with my friend the lawyer. He says he's done some more research into the matter, and he says that according to how NFA transfers work, I do NOT actually own the guns yet, even though I have paid for them. I have what is the equivalent of a contract for the dealer to deliver the guns to me once BATFE issues the stamps. This technically means that if the dealer decides to go out of business, I am out of luck. Also if the dealer decides to just screw me and take off, I can't even file a police report because the dealer technically still owns the guns. My only remedy would be to sue in civil court, which would be worthless if the dealer went out of business.
    And because the transfer doesn't legally happen and can be voided by either party up until the 4473 is signed and transfer made - it matters not whether the ATF put a stamp on a piece of paper.

    It's an open and shut case.
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5574457
    Last edited by Eurodriver; 12-09-14 at 20:52.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  5. #25
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    A 4473 is done, because it's required by law. The bottom line is the dealer was the legal owner of the suppressor. Once that Form 4 was approved, the ownership was transferred to the new purchaser and the 4473 is a formality. If that dealer no longer has it in his possession then he actually has some serious issues. And you can bet that it's probably more than one item.

    From the Form 4.

    5. Cancellation of Approved Application. The transferor may cancel an approved application only if the physical transfer of the firearm has not been completed. The transferor must return the approved application with the tax stamp affixed with a written request for cancellation, citing the need and that the physical transfer of the firearm did not take place. The NFA Branch will arrange for a refund of the tax paid

    Someone should be calling NFA Branch to get something in writing and someone should be contacting the local BATF field office.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    If the suppressor is legally the transferee's why does a 4473 need to be filled out? The OP's buddy (from hereon referred to as OPB) does not own the suppressor.

    What's actually irrelevant is all of this back-and-forth banter because whether we agree or not doesn't change OPB never seeing his money or suppressor. I'm not at all referring to the criminal aspect to all this, just talking about what Aaron's main man can expect. If the dealer isn't intimidated by certified letters from attorneys there isn't shit anyone can do without spending many thousands of dollars on an attorney, piercing the corporate veil, and going after personal assets. Period.

    If the company went out of business without proof of gross (or even ordinary) negligence, then the veil stays and he can pound sand like everyone else the LLC owed money to.

    Good reading here from someone in a similar situation that consulted an attorney:



    And because the transfer doesn't legally happen and can be voided by either party up until the 4473 is signed and transfer made - it matters not whether the ATF put a stamp on a piece of paper.

    It's an open and shut case.
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5574457



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  6. #26
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    I'd say the dealer had better be alot more worried about the BATFE than the bankruptcy court.....They are gonna want this item secured one way or another...
    "Those who do can't explain; those who don't can't understand"...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire_Medic View Post
    Scott,

    Your pm box is full......
    All too common. The private message limit on this forum is absurd.

    OP, if the transfer was done it's your can. Period. No bankruptcy court can tell the BATFE to pound sand just like bankruptcy can't keep you from paying taxes owed. The feds get their way and if the can was transferred to you in their eyes.... it's yours.
    I'm not fat, I'm tactically padded.

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  8. #28
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    Op, your buddy needs to get in touch with the bankruptcy trustee. At the same work the atf angle.

    My bet, If you can get someone at ATF to talk to the trustee, that may be you best and possibly only chance.

    Ain't jack gets done in bk without the trustee signing off.

    Going after them in a civi court is a total waste of time. Judge will just laugh at you. Bankruptcy court trumps all. Fraud it's the only thing that gets the bankruptcy judges excited. Again, go through the trustee. Don't bother hiring a lawyer, doubtful it will increase chances, it will only deflate your wallet even more.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    A 4473 is done, because it's required by law. The bottom line is the dealer was the legal owner of the suppressor. Once that Form 4 was approved, the ownership was transferred to the new purchaser and the 4473 is a formality. If that dealer no longer has it in his possession then he actually has some serious issues. And you can bet that it's probably more than one item.

    From the Form 4.

    5. Cancellation of Approved Application. The transferor may cancel an approved application only if the physical transfer of the firearm has not been completed. The transferor must return the approved application with the tax stamp affixed with a written request for cancellation, citing the need and that the physical transfer of the firearm did not take place. The NFA Branch will arrange for a refund of the tax paid

    Someone should be calling NFA Branch to get something in writing and someone should be contacting the local BATF field office.
    From your quote
    The transferor may cancel an approved application only if the physical transfer of the firearm has not been completed.
    Has the physical transfer taken place?

    No.

    OP's buddy is out of luck guys. The ATF is going to say its a civil matter.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbx View Post
    Op, your buddy needs to get in touch with the bankruptcy trustee. At the same work the atf angle.

    My bet, If you can get someone at ATF to talk to the trustee, that may be you best and possibly only chance.

    Ain't jack gets done in bk without the trustee signing off.

    Going after them in a civi court is a total waste of time. Judge will just laugh at you. Bankruptcy court trumps all. Fraud it's the only thing that gets the bankruptcy judges excited. Again, go through the trustee. Don't bother hiring a lawyer, doubtful it will increase chances, it will only deflate your wallet even more.
    Bingo.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

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