Handgun Sight Picture - Front Sight Focus is wrong??

[WAYOFTHEGUN]

Just re-watched the part where he talks about it and he says "The way we need to see it, the order I want us to see it... the rear sight, front sight and the target, all of them with the same type of focus. Not a blurry rear sight and a blurry target and a clear front sight but a completely clear focus on all three things... You can have complete focus on all three of those things at the same time. It takes time to blur this out (rear sight), blur that out (target) and make this perfectly clear (front sight). That takes a little time to switch gears and draw focus to one little place, which by the way, this matters too(rear sight) and that matters too (target)." Obviously he's talking about speed here and not bullseye shooting. I just wondered how to achieve this as one always hears about how the eyes cannot focus on more than one thing at a time and it seems contrary to basic marksmanship, re: front sight focus.

Hey dude thanks for checking out the DVD and being interested in shooting. The front sight focus deal is something I talk about in depth a the beginning of my classes and we expound on it a great deal during the course it makes sense once you look at it. It takes time to truly focus on 1 out of 3 things to the point were one is truly sharp and clear and the others are blurry. We don't have that kind of time shot to shot target to target and the reality is most shooters get target focused and don't see enough of the gun. To shoot a pistol accurately and repeatably you have to see all 3 things; rear sight, front sight, target. When you are shooting they are in that order. Try this some time, put the pistol on target and look through the rear sight to the front sight to the target and let your eyes see all 3. Don't try to focus on any one of the 3 just see them all and see this about them, the relationship of the front and rear sight and that relationship on the target, AKA sight alignment and sight focus. Every shooter I have worked with once they allow themselves to, can see all three. I call it a soft focus or easy focus, regardless of what we call it just see them. Something I do find that really helps is contrast between he rear and front sight. I prefer a black rear and a red fiber optic front for everything. ( if you carry a pistol for a living or defense I believe you have a responsibility to have a hand held or weapon mounted light to see what you are shooting at in the dark, if you have a light in your hand or on the gun you can see the sights) Well I can talk about shooting for days but I don't type that well so I'm out. It'll be time to head to the range soon. I'm working out some stuff for my new sights as we speak! Take care and best wishes with your shooting. If you have any other questions my contact info is on my website wayofthegun.us

[Surf]

In brief, I call it "looking through the sights". As Frank quickly mentions, too many people get threat or target focused and that becomes the primary focal point and they loose relationship of the weapon and the sights in regards to the target and yes they get poor results. The method that I think we are both talking about, or at least that I am speaking of, is a method of getting a soft focus on the sights with a sight picture on the target, which allows you the ability to quickly engage targets. I add the concept of "seeing what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get" and focal point can shift quickly, depending on speed and the complexity of the shot.

The steps are generally target ID, then getting your sights aligned through the rear sight, seeing the front sight and target. Focal point can shift here, mainly between front sight and target, while looking through the rear sight. There is a method for doing this or training the eyes to do this. Very good shooters often do this without knowing the definition or what they are really doing. This is what I do and only until someone explained the actual science behind it, did I actually fully grasp in scientific terms what it was that I was actually performing. It was just something that I or others may develop with a lot of experience. Many here might be doing it now. There is more to this and I am on my way out the door also. I will get back to this one later and attempt to explain this concept and how it works if someone else hasn't covered it yet and I will credit the individual who clued me in with his write up and explained the science behind it to me. Frank can perhaps drop in later and add or subtract from it.

[T2C]

In your opinions, what is the maximum distance you can effectively use this technique with a handgun?

[P2Vaircrewman]

Hey dude thanks for checking out the DVD and being interested in shooting. The front sight focus deal is something I talk about in depth a the beginning of my classes and we expound on it a great deal during the course it makes sense once you look at it. It takes time to truly focus on 1 out of 3 things to the point were one is truly sharp and clear and the others are blurry. We don't have that kind of time shot to shot target to target and the reality is most shooters get target focused and don't see enough of the gun. To shoot a pistol accurately and repeatably you have to see all 3 things; rear sight, front sight, target. When you are shooting they are in that order. Try this some time, put the pistol on target and look through the rear sight to the front sight to the target and let your eyes see all 3. Don't try to focus on any one of the 3 just see them all and see this about them, the relationship of the front and rear sight and that relationship on the target, AKA sight alignment and sight focus. Every shooter I have worked with once they allow themselves to, can see all three. I call it a soft focus or easy focus, regardless of what we call it just see them. Something I do find that really helps is contrast between he rear and front sight. I prefer a black rear and a red fiber optic front for everything. ( if you carry a pistol for a living or defense I believe you have a responsibility to have a hand held or weapon mounted light to see what you are shooting at in the dark, if you have a light in your hand or on the gun you can see the sights) Well I can talk about shooting for days but I don't type that well so I'm out. It'll be time to head to the range soon. I'm working out some stuff for my new sights as we speak! Take care and best wishes with your shooting. If you have any other questions my contact info is on my website wayofthegun.us

I agree this is a better explanation. This is the way I shoot. I think the completely "clear focus" is a bad descriptor, soft focus is more accurate..

[llO0DQLE]

Hey dude thanks for checking out the DVD and being interested in shooting. The front sight focus deal is something I talk about in depth a the beginning of my classes and we expound on it a great deal during the course it makes sense once you look at it. It takes time to truly focus on 1 out of 3 things to the point were one is truly sharp and clear and the others are blurry. We don't have that kind of time shot to shot target to target and the reality is most shooters get target focused and don't see enough of the gun. To shoot a pistol accurately and repeatably you have to see all 3 things; rear sight, front sight, target. When you are shooting they are in that order. Try this some time, put the pistol on target and look through the rear sight to the front sight to the target and let your eyes see all 3. Don't try to focus on any one of the 3 just see them all and see this about them, the relationship of the front and rear sight and that relationship on the target, AKA sight alignment and sight focus. Every shooter I have worked with once they allow themselves to, can see all three. I call it a soft focus or easy focus, regardless of what we call it just see them. Something I do find that really helps is contrast between he rear and front sight. I prefer a black rear and a red fiber optic front for everything. ( if you carry a pistol for a living or defense I believe you have a responsibility to have a hand held or weapon mounted light to see what you are shooting at in the dark, if you have a light in your hand or on the gun you can see the sights) Well I can talk about shooting for days but I don't type that well so I'm out. It'll be time to head to the range soon. I'm working out some stuff for my new sights as we speak! Take care and best wishes with your shooting. If you have any other questions my contact info is on my website wayofthegun.us

Wow thanks so much for taking the time to expound on this. Maybe one of these days, I can come down there to take a class. I'm in Canada and we don't have the kind of training that is available in the U.S. I really appreciate your videos and I learned a lot, I bought both the carbine and pistol videos. I will try and practice what you explained here..

[llO0DQLE]

Okay, I've been thinking about it and I think I get the idea. However, now I'm not sure on how to present the pistol and achieve sight alignment now with this method. When I was focusing on front sight, I would present the pistol during the draw with the muzzle pointing up a bit, acquire the front sight with my eyes and then drop it into the notch of the rear sight by lowering the muzzle. That way, I'm not wiggling the muzzle side to side to find the front sight. I guess I can still do it the same but once I have the front sight in the notch of the rear sight, switch to the soft focus on rear sight -> front sight -> target?

[llO0DQLE]

The steps are generally target ID, then getting your sights aligned through the rear sight, seeing the front sight and target. Focal point can shift here, mainly between front sight and target, while looking through the rear sight. There is a method for doing this or training the eyes to do this. There is more to this and I am on my way out the door also. I will get back to this one later and attempt to explain this concept and how it works if someone else hasn't covered it yet and I will credit the individual who clued me in with his write up and explained the science behind it to me. Frank can perhaps drop in later and add or subtract from it.

Thanks for the explanation. I will be looking forward to your further explanation with how to do this as I am not so sure I know how to do it. I understand the concept but need some guidance with the application.

[Surf]

In your opinions, what is the maximum distance you can effectively use this technique with a handgun?

I know we might hear the term "see what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get" and I use it also. Keeping this in mind there are several factors involved here and shooter skill is big but also distance to target in relation to target size and acceptable hit zone play roles. As an example I will use a standard IDPA or IPSC sized target. If I am up close, contact to say 10 - 15 yards and am only looking for A zone type hits with speed and perhaps even transitions to multiple targets quickly, this technique is highly effective. Now if I need more precision say a head zone at 15 yards, I may default more to a harder front sight focus. In other words I am basically seeing what I need to see, to get the hits I need to get. Some may need to see less than I do, or some more. Now if I only want to hit the IDPA target, shooter skill dependent again, I can make good and quick hits out to 50+ yards with this technique. So in essence the limiting factor would be the shooter skill.

Okay, I've been thinking about it and I think I get the idea. However, now I'm not sure on how to present the pistol and achieve sight alignment now with this method. When I was focusing on front sight, I would present the pistol during the draw with the muzzle pointing up a bit, acquire the front sight with my eyes and then drop it into the notch of the rear sight by lowering the muzzle. That way, I'm not wiggling the muzzle side to side to find the front sight. I guess I can still do it the same but once I have the front sight in the notch of the rear sight, switch to the soft focus on rear sight -> front sight -> target?

I will only briefly discuss it, then I will link an article on it. I have been doing this for a very long time but never knew exactly how to describe or put words to accurately describe what I was doing. In fact many successful shooters do this already and often don't really technically know what they are doing either. I think this is not an uncommon natural type of progression for many experienced shooters.

Indeed we are binocular animals who can only have one true crisp focal point, however we can maintain soft focus on several objects. When we look at an object both of our eyes meet at that object, this is what I learned to be the term "convergence". This concept is basically understood even if we don't know the phrase for it, but now we do. Having things in focus, crisp and clear, or our focal point is called "accommodation". Most people tend to think, that where our eyes "converge" is also where we naturally obtain our "accommodation" and that these two MUST go hand in hand. This is where it gets muddy as this is correct and not correct. We normally have "accommodation" at the same spot of "convergence", however we can have convergence on say our target, yet quickly shift our "accommodation" to different planes, such as front sight and back and forth to the target, all while maintaining "convergence" on the target or distance at which the targets reside.

Again this is what I do and now understand the science behind it. It does take some training, but we can teach ourselves to do this with our vision, just like training to keep both eyes open while shooting, or how to track faster and more accurately with our eyes. I will leave this discussion at this point and link the article for further and more detailed explanation. The guy who wrote the article is one smart dude and one hell of an animal with a pistol.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/vision

[T2C]

I know we might hear the term "see what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get" and I use it also. Keeping this in mind there are several factors involved here and shooter skill is big but also distance to target in relation to target size and acceptable hit zone play roles. As an example I will use a standard IDPA or IPSC sized target. If I am up close, contact to say 10 - 15 yards and am only looking for A zone type hits with speed and perhaps even transitions to multiple targets quickly, this technique is highly effective. Now if I need more precision say a head zone at 15 yards, I may default more to a harder front sight focus. In other words I am basically seeing what I need to see, to get the hits I need to get. Some may need to see less than I do, or some more. Now if I only want to hit the IDPA target, shooter skill dependent again, I can make good and quick hits out to 50+ yards with this technique. So in essence the limiting factor would be the shooter skill.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/vision

Thank you. I was hoping to get an answer from an experienced instructor.

I taught the technique for rapid engagement with a pistol out to 10 meters.. Lesser experienced people I have interacted with tend to have difficulty using the technique to get good hits with the pistol at longer distances.

[echo5whiskey]

Thank you. I was hoping to get an answer from an experienced instructor.

Me too.

Surf or WAYOFTHEGUN, so would this method be almost like the evolution of point shooting and/or indexing? When I was active duty, I had heard both of those terms tossed around a lot by the other instructors (Surf, part of that military training cadre misinformation thing from the other thread). Point shooting, as I understood it, sort of left the curriculum when we (Marines) started using ACOGs. From there, it became indexing, i.e. pointing to the target, and developing muscle memory with your presentation. Does this method build on those practices, does it kind of morph them into one a single method, or is it something totally different?

And, yes I was speaking of carbines there, but I adapted and carried the basic principles to my pistol shooting. But my handgun experience is SIGNIFICANTLY less than rifle/carbine, so I want to make sure I'm shooting with bad practices.