Big Army and "Training Like You Fight"

[Wake27]

I was raised with the notion that doing something a certain way, just because that's how its always been done, is just stupid. Big Army has a lot of that I think and I'm curious to hear opinions from current and former military on the following and related events. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a packing list is pushed out to me with a whole bunch of stupidity. Schools and certain situations - I got it. But battalion or company level field problems usually raise my blood pressure in that regard. I'm an adult, I've been in the field before, and I know pretty well what I use and what I don't. And I try to treat my Soldiers (I'm a PL) that way, and so far, I've had nothing but great results. So when a packing list comes to me for an "FTX" that isn't even 24 hours and it has 6 pairs of socks, 6 shirts, extra boots, 2 sets of ACUs, 2 ****ing washcloths, etc - I get heated. So I asked why we're bringing all of this extra shit, and the answer I got: "Because that's what you'd be bringing on a real mission. You never know how long you'll be out." We know exactly how long we're going out. I know that I have been out for longer in the exact same environment and never opened my ruck. If it were a ruck march, again, I got it. But we're not rucking anywhere so I see absolutely no training value to bringing all of that shit. The last time we did an FTX (different company CoC), there was no company packing list and I was too happy making my own. I put the bare essentials, confirmed with my senior NCOs, and then told all of the Soldiers that if they wanted more then it was up to them.

I HIGHLY doubt it, but is there something I'm missing?

[Ash Hess]

Thank every retarded, mistake making, 3 brain celled person that came before you for the past 239 years (including some folks at Valley Forge). Every person that brought a single pair of pants and then ripped out the crotch and every hard charger that had crap growing on his feet cause he only brought one pair of socks.
I agree with you and get heated of the same things. But then in the middle of a rant about the packing list, one of the Soldiers is stealing a pair of limited edition Michael Jordan's (why that Soldier had fancy shoes like that we will never know) from another Soldier because he didn't bring running shoes.

Unfortunately, the method of making Joe bring everything he owns because maybe, just maybe he will have enough to get by because he forgot something and his leader forgot to inspect him and his leader did not make sure that he inspected.

Way of the beast. 19+ years of looking at packing lists, getting mad, and then getting hit with this fine quote I will pass on to you (add superior, mocking tone) "you can't expect what you don't inspect" Throat punch!

[GTF425]

Train like you fight is a matter of mindset, not material. I do PT to prepare myself and my Soldiers for combat, so does that mean I need to wear my plate carrier and ACH, draw my weapon, and go patrol Area J for PT? You could tell someone a hundred times that ****ing a chicken is wrong, but if they want to **** a chicken, they'll do it anyway. Stupid people are everywhere.

Sounds like you've got it figured out already. Don't drink the Kool Aid; don't be afraid to make decisions if you know it's the right thing to do.

[Wake27]

Thank every retarded, mistake making, 3 brain celled person that came before you for the past 239 years (including some folks at Valley Forge). Every person that brought a single pair of pants and then ripped out the crotch and every hard charger that had crap growing on his feet cause he only brought one pair of socks.
I agree with you and get heated of the same things. But then in the middle of a rant about the packing list, one of the Soldiers is stealing a pair of limited edition Michael Jordan's (why that Soldier had fancy shoes like that we will never know) from another Soldier because he didn't bring running shoes.

Unfortunately, the method of making Joe bring everything he owns because maybe, just maybe he will have enough to get by because he forgot something and his leader forgot to inspect him and his leader did not make sure that he inspected.

Way of the beast. 19+ years of looking at packing lists, getting mad, and then getting hit with this fine quote I will pass on to you (add superior, mocking tone) "you can't expect what you don't inspect" Throat punch!

I definitely understand that aspect of it - but I tend to try and give anyone wearing a uniform the benefit of the doubt, at least about their intelligence, and so far with my platoon, it has worked. I don't want to treat anyone like a child and at least in instances like this where the potential consequences aren't that bad, I think its worth trusting them. I know at some point someone will forget something, but the vast majority of my NCOs are solid enough that it won't ever be an actual problem that needs to get to my level.

Train like you fight is a matter of mindset, not material. I do PT to prepare myself and my Soldiers for combat, so does that mean I need to wear my plate carrier and ACH, draw my weapon, and go patrol Area J for PT? You could tell someone a hundred times that ****ing a chicken is wrong, but if they want to **** a chicken, they'll do it anyway. Stupid people are everywhere.

Sounds like you've got it figured out already. Don't drink the Kool Aid; don't be afraid to make decisions if you know it's the right thing to do.

This is exactly how I feel about safety briefs. I think they're a waste of time. If a Soldier really doesn't know right from wrong, it would have to be blatantly obvious and his SL and other leadership need to fix him quick. But the vast majority of them have a good idea and I really don't think a 10, 30, or even 60 minute brief on do's and don'ts isn't going to change their mind. Responsible leadership presence will.

All of this is of course, IMO and IM[limited]E.

[GTF425]

Fix what we can at our level. It's all I can do, and hopefully I can motivate my boys to go be little hellions somewhere else in the Army and fix the broken shit they see.

I'm at the epicenter of retard right now. The Flagpole is strong on Ardennes.

[quino171]

aahhhhh.... area J. My days at Bragg. Sir, you just have to bite the bullet and just move on. Some moron screwed us all in the past by being "that guy" and forgetting his crap.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

[Co-gnARR]

Thank every retarded, mistake making, 3 brain celled person that came before you for the past 239 years...

In the Navy we always said, "over 200 years of tradition, unhindered by progress".

[Arctic1]

I was raised with the notion that doing something a certain way, just because that's how its always been done, is just stupid. Big Army has a lot of that I think and I'm curious to hear opinions from current and former military on the following and related events. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a packing list is pushed out to me with a whole bunch of stupidity. Schools and certain situations - I got it. But battalion or company level field problems usually raise my blood pressure in that regard. I'm an adult, I've been in the field before, and I know pretty well what I use and what I don't. And I try to treat my Soldiers (I'm a PL) that way, and so far, I've had nothing but great results. So when a packing list comes to me for an "FTX" that isn't even 24 hours and it has 6 pairs of socks, 6 shirts, extra boots, 2 sets of ACUs, 2 ****ing washcloths, etc - I get heated. So I asked why we're bringing all of this extra shit, and the answer I got: "Because that's what you'd be bringing on a real mission. You never know how long you'll be out." We know exactly how long we're going out. I know that I have been out for longer in the exact same environment and never opened my ruck. If it were a ruck march, again, I got it. But we're not rucking anywhere so I see absolutely no training value to bringing all of that shit. The last time we did an FTX (different company CoC), there was no company packing list and I was too happy making my own. I put the bare essentials, confirmed with my senior NCOs, and then told all of the Soldiers that if they wanted more then it was up to them.

I HIGHLY doubt it, but is there something I'm missing?

First off, I agree that some packing lists are stupid, but a free-for-all based on what each individual thinks is best does not work either.

Do you not have a base-line packing list for each duty position in your platoon, for a set period of time without resupply?
For conventional units we used 72-hours as the basic sustainment metric; ie each soldier should always be packed and ready for a 72-hour mission with no resupply, for Class I-III, and one complete basic ammo loadout (Class V).

This base-line should be SOP, and should always be packed. Items should be distributed across your three lines; 1st line 12 hours, 2nd line 24 hours and 3rd line 36 hours, so that you are still able to survive if you are separated from your equipment.
Working from this packing list, you can add or subtract items based on mission requirements. Note that "mission drives the gear" is a good mantra, but is not always realistic to the extent where you have ample time to make huge adjustments prior to missions. Not every conflict will be on the low end of the spectrum - some may not allow you time to adapt due to the tempo of the operation.

You define the standard for your platoon, based on your METL, and you need your NCO's to enforce it. You must always make sure that the minimum items that are on the packing list are carried, so that the level of sustainment is the same for the entire platoon. It is a huge NO-GO to have troops discard items in favor of snacks and other non-essential items. It is also your responsibility to ensure that nobody is overloaded with non-essential items, in addition to the standard items on the packing list, as that can have a huge impact on the combat readiness of your unit as fatigue can set in much sooner with troops who carry too much.

Treating people like adults also entails setting standards, and enforcing them, in order to make sure that they are mission ready. If they cannot handle that, then they are not adults IMO.

This is exactly how I feel about safety briefs. I think they're a waste of time. If a Soldier really doesn't know right from wrong, it would have to be blatantly obvious and his SL and other leadership need to fix him quick. But the vast majority of them have a good idea and I really don't think a 10, 30, or even 60 minute brief on do's and don'ts isn't going to change their mind. Responsible leadership presence will.

This is so messed up, I don't know what to say.

Safety briefs should be equivalent to kicking in an open door, but ALL levels of your organization must understand the ORM for each element of the exercise, as well as for the overall exercise.
They need to be briefed on this in order to understand that all safety issues have been addressed, and what steps have been taken to ensure the maximum level of safety throughout the exercise.
Military activities will never be void of risk, as what we do as soldiers is inherently dangerous, but we can focus efforts in order to minimize the probability and consequence.

Do you not repeat range safety angles and basic safety rules each range session?

Do you think Tier 1 units who train for HR missions, just decide to go do some live fire shooting?

There is no good reason to lose people in training, and showing the degree of complacency towards safety briefs as you do here is a quick way of letting that happen.

[GTF425]

Hey brother,

To us, a safety brief is a mandatory "drugs are bad" kinda talk before we cut Soldiers loose for the weekend, not a range orientation or range safety brief.

[sevenhelmet]

Just my $0.02, but this sounds like the standard complaining that troops and sailors love to do. But I understand it, and I agree with some of it. You're correct, the off-duty safety training doesn't stop some guys from going out and being idiots, unfortunately. And the more they act like idiots, the more commanders are going to direct said training. It's the easiest band-aid for brass to slap on a perceived problem, and it gets worse the higher the rank. Being (and making) good deckplate leaders (or whatever term the Army uses) is a lot harder. But I've been in units which had great leadership, and the "BS" training was a lot less frequent, so it's not a completely blind system.

On the subject of packing too much for field training and detachments, I can only speak from the experience of being in a seagoing Navy unit which packed up EVERYTHING. Every. Time. We. Went. Out. It got REALLY old, but FWIW, if we were deployed unexpectedly "for real" at some point (which can and does happen during workups), we would have been happy to have all our sh!t along for the ride. Obviously Army FTXs are different, so I can't be a lot of help there.