Big Army and "Training Like You Fight"

[Hank6046]

For proper leadership on all fronts, there needs to be some give and take on all sides. Higher leadership shouldn't forget where they came from, but junior leadership must realize that they may not be able to understand a place that they have not yet been.

Sorry for being a bit long-winded.

Where were you in my Marine Corps career? This is perfect for so many junior NCO's to try and wrap their heads around

[Wake27]

For my two pennies' worth, I think there is a bit of compromise that needs to be understood from both sides of the discussion.

On one hand, the junior leader wants to be able to take full responsibility for both the success and failure of his troops. While that is a good indicator of personal character, the junior leader needs to understand that he is not the only one responsible for his men. Just like Pvt. Schmuckatelli is directly accountable to his team-leader and vice versa, he is also accountable to his squad leader, platoon sergeant, platoon leader/commander, etc.; all the way up to the top. The same goes downhill as well. If Pvt. Schmuckatelli is jacked up, and the company 1stSgt. sees it, the 1stSgt. doesn't go to the Pvt.'s team leader first (unless he is with him at the time), he goes to the Pvt.'s platoon sergeant who, in turn, talks to the squad leader, etc. Even though there are multiple levels of leadership between the flag-level commanders and the line troops, they are still responsible for the line troops...and everyone in between.

On the other hand, high-level leaders sometimes fail to understand the difference between solid leadership and micromanagement. If you are placing enough faith in your junior leadership to allow them to stay in their positions, you should have enough faith to allow them to lead their troops. No plan survives contact with the enemy; i.e. executing the best op plan still requires space for improvisation. It's great for everyone to be on the same page (which rarely happens in gov't work), bur there's a lot of room on that page; and it's also imperative that that page is the right one for everyone to be on.

Regarding packing lists (the apparent overarching theme of this thread), some of this stuff hasn't changed in years, and some of the required items are downright ridiculous. Take whistles for example. At no time in any of my units did we ever train for any scenario when we would ever employ a whistle. Whistles were not included in any SOPs or TTPs; yet, without fail, the item showed up in every long-term packing list. Why? I never got an answer besides, "Because we said so."

For proper leadership on all fronts, there needs to be some give and take on all sides. Higher leadership shouldn't forget where they came from, but junior leadership must realize that they may not be able to understand a place that they have not yet been.

Sorry for being a bit long-winded.

Well said, and I do try to keep in mind that there is plenty of stuff above my level that I have no visibility on. More than packing lists as the overarching theme for this thread, is the "because that's how we've always done it" thinking. That is what absolutely drives me nuts. The whistle is a good example, but I have a better one, from today no less. I was tasked to run an MG range soon and so I asked the LT who ran the last one to send me anything she had. Between that plan and the amount of ammo that our S3 ordered, it was very apparent that our BN has made it a habit to "qualify" Soldiers only by firing Table II in the FM, when Table I is also required, and in many cases so is Table III.

And the reason that I hate that thinking is because of somebody who spent a long time on the special side, I do hope to go there as soon as I can.

[echo5whiskey]

Well said, and I do try to keep in mind that there is plenty of stuff above my level that I have no visibility on. More than packing lists as the overarching theme for this thread, is the "because that's how we've always done it" thinking. That is what absolutely drives me nuts. The whistle is a good example, but I have a better one, from today no less. I was tasked to run an MG range soon and so I asked the LT who ran the last one to send me anything she had. Between that plan and the amount of ammo that our S3 ordered, it was very apparent that our BN has made it a habit to "qualify" Soldiers only by firing Table II in the FM, when Table I is also required, and in many cases so is Table III.

I get that. Sometimes an organization gets this strange "brain" (i.e. H&S) disease called Checkintheboxism. That's where junior leadership needs to close the gap. If you get positive feedback for trying to do the right thing (emphasis on RIGHT not blue falcon, then you know you have some solid upper leadership. If you get thumbed down in favor of the easy way out, just do what you can when you can. We've all been there at some point.

In any case, use this as a learning tool. Once you make it to the level(s) you're having issues with, you will then have the experience from both sides of the coin, and maybe you can positively impact a junior leader in your same spot. Experience is the best teacher--especially when it's the experience of others.

Where were you in my Marine Corps career? This is perfect for so many junior NCO's to try and wrap their heads around

I guess that depends on when your career took place. I was active from '05-'13, and I left as a junior NCO, so I doubt I would have had an impact. :P

I had an OUTSTANDING mentor when I first pinned on Cpl. He was the most level-headed, common-sensical 1stSgt I have ever met. He is now a SgtMaj. and we still talk a lot. He imparted that little nugget of wisdom to me (among others), so I have tried to share.

[eodinert]

It's the 'PT belt' mentality. Somehow, the idea that that a soldier needs to be visible when running on a roadway at night morphs into a uniform item in a combat zone... and quite the sacred cow, at that.