Big Army and "Training Like You Fight"

[skydivr]

Embrace the suck. Those making this decision most likely have the perpective that the PL does not. However, there's nothing wrong with having the right conversation with the XO (who is usually a GREAT resource without bucking your CO) to try and learn why. Because someday, you may be the S3 and you know why, but some young PL is gonna disagree with you and the shoe will be on the other foot.

I WAS the young LT (later CPT, MAJ and LTC) who always wanted to know the 'why' so that later, when the new LT would ask me 'why', I had the perspective to give him an honest, decent answer - and sometimes that answer was "Because that's what the General wants"...

Artic1 is square on the money.

[Turnkey11]

How come pilots run through checklists EVERY single time they go out to fly, but some people cannot stand the thought of dictating what their soldiers should bring, and actually check that they have brought it along?

Are not your FTX packing lists the same as for real operations? Isn't that the whole point of training, to see if the things you want to do actually works?

During our pre-deployment work up, we (I) made a packing list for our team. Just something to start working off of.
It was revised several times, due to several different factors; space limitations in our vehicles, making changes to necessary/required personal sustainment gear, additional mission critical equipment issued in theater, increased water requirements etc etc.

If you do not do this stuff while training, you will not know how you will be affected by this when actually going out on an operation.

And just to reiterate, it is your job as a leader to ensure that your men are equipped properly to ensure that they can successfully carry out the tasks they are required to.
This requires establishing standards, and enforcing them.

Don't you have SOP's for PCC's/PCI's? Do you not check that these are performed at various levels of leadership in the platoon?

[Arctic1]

And your point is?

[turnburglar]

"where's your NVGs Airman?

"It's daytime Senior....."

[Wake27]

How come pilots run through checklists EVERY single time they go out to fly, but some people cannot stand the thought of dictating what their soldiers should bring, and actually check that they have brought it along?

That's two different things.

Are not your FTX packing lists the same as for real operations? Isn't that the whole point of training, to see if the things you want to do actually works?

That is exactly the point of training. My point, is that I knew that what I was being told to do, does not work.

During our pre-deployment work up, we (I) made a packing list for our team. Just something to start working off of.
It was revised several times, due to several different factors; space limitations in our vehicles, making changes to necessary/required personal sustainment gear, additional mission critical equipment issued in theater, increased water requirements etc etc.

If you do not do this stuff while training, you will not know how you will be affected by this when actually going out on an operation.

And just to reiterate, it is your job as a leader to ensure that your men are equipped properly to ensure that they can successfully carry out the tasks they are required to.
This requires establishing standards, and enforcing them.

Don't you have SOP's for PCC's/PCI's? Do you not check that these are performed at various levels of leadership in the platoon?

I am not disagreeing with the necessity for an SOP and PCIs/PCCs by any means. I disagree with the same solution being thrown to every problem because the SOP does not allow for flexibility, alternate trains of thought, or the leadership to take initiative and responsibility. Just like you said, you revised your packing list several times due to many factors.

My thoughts in bold.

[Arctic1]

Why is it two different things?

As I stated, we operated with a 72-hour packing list. Any amendments to this was outlined in the OpOrd. We used a check list system for verifying that all required personal and mission critical items were present.
Our packing concept allows us to do patrolling for a few hours, patrolling for up to 24 hours and patrolling for up to 72 hours without the need to repack.

You say you knew that what was presented was not going to work. Did you articulate this to higher? In what way? Did you present your own packing list, and explain how you reached you conclusions?

Our entire team revised the packing list, but we stuck to the same one across the board when we landed one that worked well. Especially with regards to medical, ammunition and water. Medical was stored in the same location on all vehicles, so you could grab the medkit and litter from the same spot regardless of the vehicle. When it came to team specific items, each member of the team knew where the equipment was located on the vehicle; extra NVG's, extra batteries, LRF and so forth.

I also disagree with your assertion that SOP does not allow for flexibility, alternate trains of thought or allow leaders to take initiative. As long as you can articulate why you need to deviate from certain aspects of the SOP (with regards to packing gear), any solid company commander should allow this.

[USMC_Anglico]

"I am not disagreeing with the necessity for an SOP and PCIs/PCCs by any means. I disagree with the same solution being thrown to every problem because the SOP does not allow for flexibility, alternate trains of thought, or the leadership to take initiative and responsibility. Just like you said, you revised your packing list several times due to many factors."

It's Big Army for a reason. LCD, lowest common denominator.

If this is how you feel, you should look at moving over to the special side of the house. There is still shenanigans, but less across the board. Start training for selection.

[Arctic1]

Receiving packing list instructions and taking initiative are not mutually exclusive.

I don't get the whole "lowest common denominator" crap. How is that a hindrance to a leadership element doing the best job they possibly can, with the resources allocated to them?
Do you resign and just settle for mediocrity?

If you do your job right, you will be able to successfully influence decisions to favor your own thoughts/deas. But first, you need to have these thoughts and ideas worked up.

Commonality across a variety of skillsets, material, training, battle drills etc is a huge benefit when working with other elements (attachments and detachments). Lowest common denominator is a BS excuse, IMO, and not the reason for things being the way they are.

If you disagree, articulate your point of contention and try to affect a change.

Re the SOF thing, at least in my experience, there is no free for all type mentality there either. Except for select units with special mission sets that require non standard approaches to problems, units follow established SOP's and training there as well. The main difference is that SOF is more often able to apply the "mission drives the gear" mantra, than GPF, due to the nature of their mission set.

[echo5whiskey]

For my two pennies' worth, I think there is a bit of compromise that needs to be understood from both sides of the discussion.

On one hand, the junior leader wants to be able to take full responsibility for both the success and failure of his troops. While that is a good indicator of personal character, the junior leader needs to understand that he is not the only one responsible for his men. Just like Pvt. Schmuckatelli is directly accountable to his team-leader and vice versa, he is also accountable to his squad leader, platoon sergeant, platoon leader/commander, etc.; all the way up to the top. The same goes downhill as well. If Pvt. Schmuckatelli is jacked up, and the company 1stSgt. sees it, the 1stSgt. doesn't go to the Pvt.'s team leader first (unless he is with him at the time), he goes to the Pvt.'s platoon sergeant who, in turn, talks to the squad leader, etc. Even though there are multiple levels of leadership between the flag-level commanders and the line troops, they are still responsible for the line troops...and everyone in between.

On the other hand, high-level leaders sometimes fail to understand the difference between solid leadership and micromanagement. If you are placing enough faith in your junior leadership to allow them to stay in their positions, you should have enough faith to allow them to lead their troops. No plan survives contact with the enemy; i.e. executing the best op plan still requires space for improvisation. It's great for everyone to be on the same page (which rarely happens in gov't work), bur there's a lot of room on that page; and it's also imperative that that page is the right one for everyone to be on.

Regarding packing lists (the apparent overarching theme of this thread), some of this stuff hasn't changed in years, and some of the required items are downright ridiculous. Take whistles for example. At no time in any of my units did we ever train for any scenario when we would ever employ a whistle. Whistles were not included in any SOPs or TTPs; yet, without fail, the item showed up in every long-term packing list. Why? I never got an answer besides, "Because we said so."

For proper leadership on all fronts, there needs to be some give and take on all sides. Higher leadership shouldn't forget where they came from, but junior leadership must realize that they may not be able to understand a place that they have not yet been.

Sorry for being a bit long-winded.

[Wake27]

Why is it two different things?

As I stated, we operated with a 72-hour packing list. Any amendments to this was outlined in the OpOrd. We used a check list system for verifying that all required personal and mission critical items were present.
Our packing concept allows us to do patrolling for a few hours, patrolling for up to 24 hours and patrolling for up to 72 hours without the need to repack.

You say you knew that what was presented was not going to work. Did you articulate this to higher? In what way? Did you present your own packing list, and explain how you reached you conclusions?

No, in this case, I just sat aside and colored like was stated earlier. I was still trying to feel out my new commander and XO. Next time though.

Our entire team revised the packing list, but we stuck to the same one across the board when we landed one that worked well. Especially with regards to medical, ammunition and water. Medical was stored in the same location on all vehicles, so you could grab the medkit and litter from the same spot regardless of the vehicle. When it came to team specific items, each member of the team knew where the equipment was located on the vehicle; extra NVG's, extra batteries, LRF and so forth.

I am completely on board with all of that.

I also disagree with your assertion that SOP does not allow for flexibility, alternate trains of thought or allow leaders to take initiative. As long as you can articulate why you need to deviate from certain aspects of the SOP (with regards to packing gear), any solid company commander should allow this.

It depends on the SOP and the commander, like you said, a decent commander SHOULD, but my rant is more about the ones that don't.

Again in bold.