Using a DA/SA pistol

**Ruark** · 04-02-15, 22:36

Originally Posted by Arctic1

Why would you do that?

Because you might want or need that first pull to be SA. I do it all the time - actually I practice it both ways.

**WillBrink** · 04-02-15, 22:44

Originally Posted by ruchik

I'm new to the world of using DA/SA guns, I've only ever used SAO or striker fired handguns. I have to stress that I have zero experience in using DA/SA guns; I just recently picked up a P-07, and was considering giving it's DA feature a go. So please forgive me if the question sounds stupid.

I realize that DA to SA transitions require practice. Here's my question. You train to draw the gun, fire in DA, then go to SA. Simple enough. But I assume that the gun isn't decocked every single time there's a pause; it is only decocked when the gun is returned to the holster (please correct me if I'm wrong). So let's say that the gun is in SA, and you have to engage again. If one's muscle memory is tuned to a DA first shot, then wouldn't a shot in SA throw one's aim off? Such as expecting a heavy trigger pull, but it's light and short instead? Is this an issue anyone has run into before?

Me I can work with SA or DOA only guns, but DA/SA not so much. I prefer a consistent trigger pull and DA/SA does not fit that for me. I'm sure with enough practice you can get used to it but not a system for me ...

**Tattoonick** · 04-02-15, 23:11

Originally Posted by echo5whiskey

Perhaps I am just missing something, but I have never heard of "simply pulling the trigger again." Unless I'm just way off the mark here, how would you know if you had a light primer strike without looking at the primer. The other scenario in this situation might be a bad round, or failure to even chamber a round. In all my pistol training, I've been trained to perform immediate action (i.e. "tap, rack, bang/squeeze/fire/etc."). In a gunfight you don't want to risk your life on what may be operator failure.

While I do agree with "tap rack bang" and it's what was taught to me and what I taught to fellow Marines, I do think in the heat of the moment the minuscule amount of time it takes to pull the trigger a second time during a string of rapid fire is worth the effort before pulling the gun out of commission to check for mechanical failure.
Though it's also circumstantial I believe. Slow and aimed fire and medium to long range, sure I would "tap rack bang" and get the gun back up. But <10ft away and trading hot lead I would like to know my pistol had DA capabilities because when things are that sticky I am just interested in getting shots off. If I have a missfire and pull the trigger again and the gun still hasn't gone off, at close range it's time to grab a weapon of opportunity and do some work.

**echo5whiskey** · 04-02-15, 23:37

Originally Posted by Tattoonick

While I do agree with "tap rack bang" and it's what was taught to me and what I taught to fellow Marines, I do think in the heat of the moment the minuscule amount of time it takes to pull the trigger a second time during a string of rapid fire is worth the effort before pulling the gun out of commission to check for mechanical failure.
Though it's also circumstantial I believe. Slow and aimed fire and medium to long range, sure I would "tap rack bang" and get the gun back up. But <10ft away and trading hot lead I would like to know my pistol had DA capabilities because when things are that sticky I am just interested in getting shots off. If I have a missfire and pull the trigger again and the gun still hasn't gone off, at close range it's time to grab a weapon of opportunity and do some work.

I'm going to agree to disagree. If you're in that situation, you're d***ed if you do, and d***ed if you don't regardless of the malfunction. To me, it makes no difference whether you're squeezing the trigger and nothing's happening or racking another round, you're still not getting shots off. It doesn't take that much more time to rack the slide [even if you take out the "tap" part]. If I'm taking fire, and I have a gun in my hand, I'm making sure it's not working before abandoning it. If you're that close, you can even shoot one-handed if you're trying to cut down time. I'm all for violence of action, but I believe in smart violence.

**Tattoonick** · 04-03-15, 00:08

I hear ya for sure, and we could talk it all day. I think there are points to both side. I know in the time it takes to rack a slide I can pull the trigger twice more at least. One of those trigger pulls might set off that round, but racking a slide never fired a shot. Plus it takes one hand to pull a trigger, leaving another one free to defend/distance. Where as racking involves two hands leaving you vulnerable.

**echo5whiskey** · 04-03-15, 00:13

Originally Posted by Tattoonick

I hear ya for sure, and we could talk it all day.

That being said, I'm not going to hijack the thread any longer. Apologies to the OP if we took it too far.

**Tattoonick** · 04-03-15, 00:24

^ yeah, sorry OP.
I suppose in answer to the original question, no, I've never noticed a downside to firing the first shot DA and then going SA from then on out. I keep sidearms all loaded with the hammers at halfcock and tend to practice at the range the same way. DA for the first shot, then SA on out. As well as the same weak hand.

**Mysteryman** · 04-03-15, 01:47

Originally Posted by Tattoonick

While I do agree with "tap rack bang" and it's what was taught to me and what I taught to fellow Marines, I do think in the heat of the moment the minuscule amount of time it takes to pull the trigger a second time during a string of rapid fire is worth the effort before pulling the gun out of commission to check for mechanical failure.
Though it's also circumstantial I believe. Slow and aimed fire and medium to long range, sure I would "tap rack bang" and get the gun back up. But <10ft away and trading hot lead I would like to know my pistol had DA capabilities because when things are that sticky I am just interested in getting shots off. If I have a missfire and pull the trigger again and the gun still hasn't gone off, at close range it's time to grab a weapon of opportunity and do some work.

Second strike capability is a bullshit marketing gimmick. No respectable instructor teaches such nonsense. Why would you put your faith and possibly life in the belief that a primer that has already FAILED will ignite if struck a second time? What's more troubling is the blind belief that the issue is in fact a hard primer and not an empty chamber, which is what accounts for the vast majority of "failure to fire" malfunctions. Pulling the trigger on an empty chamber gets you nowhere. A "failure to fire" stoppage is solved with TAP RACK and only TAP RACK, not pulling the trigger again. TAP RACK works with all pistols regardless of firing system and solves multiple problems, all without any additional input from the firearm or the user. Gun goes "click" you TAP RACK.

Lets racap.

Possible issues with a "failure to fire" stoppage.

-hard primer
-absent primer
-empty chamber(unseated magazine/defective magazine/empty magazine)
-out of battery slide
-broken gun(think firing pin)

Of the above possible problems how many COULD be solved by pulling the trigger again? The answer is ONE, and only if the primer doe sin fact ignite a second time. If you TAP RACK, how many problems could you possibly solve? The answer is FOUR. You do the math.

Striker fired guns are vastly superior designs and here's why. Learning the mechanics of marksmanship and firearm manipulation is but a very small part of the defensive/offensive/competitive use of a firearm. The less BS your brain has to deal with in unf**king your gear the more brain power you have to focus on more important things like seeking cover and processing the situation. Consistent trigger puller, the absence of manual/positive safeties and decockers, makes working the gun a much simpler task vs guns with any or all of the above extra bits. With that in mind and the knowledge that TAP RACK is the first(and often final)step to solving malfunctions, the myth of second strike capability is but a distant memory.

MM

ETA: As for the DA/SA question. The common etiquette is that when still actively engaging targets the pistol remains in SA. When assessing the area or unsure of additional targets/threats then the pistol should be decocked. Naturally it gets decocked prior to holstering. However, as I posted above, that's a lot of extra stuff to think about and worry about. Holstering a DA/SA gun that hasn't been decocked is a sketchy move that could cost you significantly. Keeping my finger off the trigger is both universal to all firearms and is all I need to be 100% safe.