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Thread: Movement in open area while engaged

  1. #1
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    Movement in open area while engaged

    Was talking tactics with a cop buddy the other day.

    We were discussing various scenario's (especially active shooter) and in one scenario he described a certain area where a shooter could get cover and fire. So the shooter would have cover and the Officer would not.

    Were talking within 35 yds, pistols, all drawn. We won't get into down range concerns for this either to keep the premise simple.

    He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing. I think that would generally not be the thing to do. He said he was counting the intimidation effect. I explained I understand the intimidation but that would not be the time to move towards someone firing at him.

    I suggested holding position and firing (easier to shoot accurately when not moving), running to cover/concealment, running to flank the shooter, or walk to the shooters flank while returning fire.

    2nd scenario: Inside 35 yds, BG and Officer have pistols, no cover or concealment nearby. BG is more or less stationary and firing. Whats the best course of action for the Officer?

    My buddy still says advance while firing. I don't think thats wrong at all, but In my opinion a lateral, even circling movement would be better. No harder to shoot while walking forward or to the side, and it forces the BG to adjust to you and attempt to track you.

    What say you guys?

  2. #2
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    I'm not police, but here are things to consider:

    Your accuracy is negatively impacted by moving while shooting, while the BG's is not.
    You do not have cover nor concealment, the BG does.

    This seems like a really good way to get shot while not landing any hits on the BG.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    Was talking tactics with a cop buddy the other day.

    We were discussing various scenario's (especially active shooter) and in one scenario he described a certain area where a shooter could get cover and fire. So the shooter would have cover and the Officer would not.

    Were talking within 35 yds, pistols, all drawn. We won't get into down range concerns for this either to keep the premise simple.

    He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing. I think that would generally not be the thing to do. He said he was counting the intimidation effect. I explained I understand the intimidation but that would not be the time to move towards someone firing at him.

    I suggested holding position and firing (easier to shoot accurately when not moving), running to cover/concealment, running to flank the shooter, or walk to the shooters flank while returning fire.

    2nd scenario: Inside 35 yds, BG and Officer have pistols, no cover or concealment nearby. BG is more or less stationary and firing. Whats the best course of action for the Officer?

    My buddy still says advance while firing. I don't think thats wrong at all, but In my opinion a lateral, even circling movement would be better. No harder to shoot while walking forward or to the side, and it forces the BG to adjust to you and attempt to track you.

    What say you guys?
    Ron,

    Your buddy's tactics suck. Plain and simple and that's coming from a LEO with a good amount of tactical training and quite a few shooting schools under his belt. Try asking one of the SME's here that are real deal gunfighters and see what they have to say? Koshinn speaks the truth. I understand where he is going with his thought process, but he would likely get the air let out of him pretty quick if his adversary had any skill whatsoever.
    Last edited by ryantx23; 04-07-15 at 22:58.
    Certified AR Armorer among many other things.
    Semper Paratus Arms - 2014

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    Supress and break contact. If they are taking fire (even if its not accurate) and you are moving it should reduce your chances of getting shot until you can gain an advantagous position and re-engage. Thats my initial reaction anyway. There may be some circumstances where advancing is an option but from the general idea I got from your scenario gtfo while supressing seems the best option. Interested in what others have to say.

    Disclaimer: not LEO and my only training as a grunt was assault into an ambush, but thats a different ball game.

    Mike

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    Without going into great detail (OPSEC concerns) there is a time and place for aggressive action - this is not generally taught because it requires two very difficult things, #1 having the understanding of combat tactics in various situations and #2 having a very large pair of balls.

    Whenever I have trained "aggressive action" it has always been during specific breaks in combat and very specific circumstances.

    In reference to active shooter(s) situations I will say this - current mantra is to get to the shooter as fast as possible, to close the time between the shooting starts to the time the shooter is dead. This makes the time that the shooter has to kill as short as possible. Now the caveat is that once a contact team or officer engages the shooter(s) that timeline stops since it is no longer innocent people being killed. At that time a reasonable and prudent officer would hold his position (of cover) and maintain a steady stream of fire until backup arrives - then and only then would aggressive action be required to end that type of situation.

    This is normally called a "barricaded person" but thankfully, the vast majority of active shooter(s) either commit (cowardly) suicide or surrender.

    Just something else to consider - I train constantly at distance shooting (pistol). 25 yards, 50 yards, 75 yards. I can tell you that 25 yards and out, standing freestyle, basically target shooting would be the only real way of making a hit worth anything. So add in the adrenaline of the cluster**** that is an OIS, multiply that by an "active shooter" situation, add in a possible crappy pistol characteristics (NY1 trigger, etc) and what you have is a "lucky shot" situation. That is a situation I would not advise anyone to be in, under any circumstance.

    35 yards? Sit tight, hold him (or them) down, backup arrives, lots of bullets equal better shot of hitting.

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    I would absolutely not want to count on "intimidation." Depending on the situation, maybe I'd fire a quick shot or two if he's moving into position and then haul ass to cover. But probably just haul ass in that situation. For number two, I'd rather stay still and focus on shooting him as opposed to focusing on making him miss me.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazymjb View Post
    Supress and break contact. If they are taking fire (even if its not accurate) and you are moving it should reduce your chances of getting shot until you can gain an advantagous position and re-engage. Thats my initial reaction anyway. There may be some circumstances where advancing is an option but from the general idea I got from your scenario gtfo while supressing seems the best option. Interested in what others have to say.

    Disclaimer: not LEO and my only training as a grunt was assault into an ambush, but thats a different ball game.

    Mike

    Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
    To add, you have to understand that the BG has to shoot the same distance you do. If you make that distance shorter, you not only increase your accuracy, but you increase his as well. Breaking contact does not necessarily mean running straight back either. You can break contact with a lateral movement so long as it will serve a purpose; e.g. cover.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by echo5whiskey View Post
    To add, you have to understand that the BG has to shoot the same distance you do. If you make that distance shorter, you not only increase your accuracy, but you increase his as well. Breaking contact does not necessarily mean running straight back either. You can break contact with a lateral movement so long as it will serve a purpose; e.g. cover.
    Agreed. Im also assuming there is no greater mission here other than survival. If its an active shooter and the public is still around then the rewards for the risks you take go up. For pure survival.... dont advance on a target without support. There is a reason for "buddy rushing" with a buddy.

    Mike

    Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...

  9. #9
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    As a non-professional IMHO if the BG is targeting/focusing on the LEO, then he's not shooting innocents, and therefore no need to get into a hurry. Quickly see Cover, Wait it out for help.

    The only scenario that the above makes sense to me is when the BG is actively targeting innocents, and this is a last-resort action. And hitting a running, dodging target is NOT easy; moving sideways presents a smaller target than moving directly at you....
    "Those who do can't explain; those who don't can't understand"...

  10. #10
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    I'm just a dumb former Infantryman here, but here's my take:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    We were discussing various scenario's (especially active shooter) and in one scenario he described a certain area where a shooter could get cover and fire. So the shooter would have cover and the Officer would not.
    Were talking within 35 yds, pistols, all drawn. We won't get into down range concerns for this either to keep the premise simple.

    He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing. I think that would generally not be the thing to do. He said he was counting the intimidation effect. I explained I understand the intimidation but that would not be the time to move towards someone firing at him.

    I suggested holding position and firing (easier to shoot accurately when not moving), running to cover/concealment, running to flank the shooter, or walk to the shooters flank while returning fire.
    Going prone and returning fire wouldn't be a bad option, but I can see trying to lay down some suppressing fire with a few shots at the BG, and then booking it to cover. Walking, even at a "range walk" towards the bad guy while shooting is a great way to get doubled tapped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    2nd scenario: Inside 35 yds, BG and Officer have pistols, no cover or concealment nearby. BG is more or less stationary and firing. Whats the best course of action for the Officer?

    My buddy still says advance while firing. I don't think thats wrong at all, but In my opinion a lateral, even circling movement would be better. No harder to shoot while walking forward or to the side, and it forces the BG to adjust to you and attempt to track you.

    What say you guys?
    No cover at all? With a rifle, I'd say hit the deck, and dump your magazine on the BG. Within 35 yards, it shouldn't be too hard to get a couple hits. Standing will almost certainly get yourself hit. Moving could help, but still, you're an awfully big target within 35 yards. Going prone would reduce your profile, and hopefully give you the chance to take out the BG before he does the same to you.

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