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Thread: Movement in open area while engaged

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbjh View Post
    With respect to going prone (and I realize this is a theoretical Bogeyman), isn't the angle of deflection of ricochetting rounds exceptionally shallow? Should the good guy be worried about essentially giving the bad guy a larger target to hit because of the ability for rounds to not have to directly hit their target in order to be effective?


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    Years ago many FIS had a block on richochet shooting. The FBI put out a handout called 'Bouncing Bullets' that it provided to agencies and academies and the technique was featured in a way cool scen in the police training film 'Survival Shooting Techniques.'

    Not enough talk about it anyone in LE circles, even in terms of protecting yourself from richochets.

    I did tests to validate the FBI studies and found that with shotgun and pistol rounds (80's era projectiles) it is a viable technique. Here is a link to the document - it is a sorry PDF of a photocopy - https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Photocopy/6895NCJRS.pdf

    Anyways, I was able to shoot along a runway with both concrete and asphalt surfaces as well as on buffalo and fescue turf.

    Essentially, with less than a 45 degree angle of incidence, the softer the surface the higher the angle of departure, harder the surface, the shallower the angle of departure.

    So, theoretically, it would go higher with turf - never done it with rifles or IIRC beyond 50 yards or so.

    Something I always remember: when I teach tactics, I'm betting your life. Not to be done in a cavalier fashion, and there are no absolutes.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 04-10-15 at 16:16.

  2. #42
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    Regarding shooting on the move, you have to have instructors who know what they're doing, and shooters who know what they're doing. I doubt it's possible to learn it properly on your own, without someone else's eyes who can accurately correct you.

    If you do have those available, you can move fairly fast (think a fast-paced walk) and smoothly if you learn to do it right. It's more than just standing straight up and walking toward a target (whether human or paper). It's knowing when to squeeze the trigger and how to squeeze the trigger. It's also knowing how to move your feet and how to position your body. I'm not saying to you have to be in a full "combat glide", but you can make yourself more stable just by manipulating your center of gravity. I'm not saying that shooting on the move should be your default action, just that it is one of a number of options available in these scenarios.

    Also, when referencing military IA drills, anything less than 50 yds is considered a "near ambush" and has an SOP for overcoming it. That, however, is based on having a squad (or team), with at least rifles, firing on an enemy element. Assaulting through is not necessarily the optimal option for an individual (IMHO, that is).
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

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  3. #43
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    25+ years ago I attended my first Firearms Instructor course and got to hear Francis McGee of the NYPD. Information from the studies that NYPD's firearms training unit conducted back then on OIS were introduced and in all that data was a gem that they'd found that 100% of officers who sought cover during a shootout survived. Even young and dumb me back then knew that your rarely pronounce a 100% probability for any human endeavor. I've tried to work move to cover drills into my lesson plans ever since.

    Singlehandedly assaulting a position of cover sounds like a good scene in a Schwarzenegger, Stallone, or Snipes action movie but I'd invite him to try it with Simmunition FX, paintball or airsoft in a FOF exercise and see if his plans change.
    Last edited by Gunnar da Wolf; 04-11-15 at 10:34.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09fatbob View Post
    Caught in the open, weapon in hand, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, CLOSE THE DISTANCE. Apply much violence of action
    Cause that worked so well for Pickett and Lee.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    I do this quite a bit in training with NLTA teaching guys to move off the draw - take a guy aside brief him and drill him without the other folks seeing it - then face them at 4-5 yards - virgin bad guy (never seen drill before) has 17T in back waistband, set up FI, bad guy moves for gun, officer drops DL, moves and draws diagonally in, almost always beat bad guy, first time. That time it was all about OODA. Generally, after that the officer will never beat the non-virgin bad guy, because the bad guy knows what the officer is going to do, he expects movement, so he has already decided what to do in response, all he has to key on is which way.

    Since 1976 just a tick over 50% of the police shootings in which an officer was killed happened within 5 feet of the offender; over 80% within 20 feet. I would be willing to bet that those distances are not the combat gunfight distances that Paul Howe was quoted as talking about.

    As someone said earlier, LEO's need to train beyond those distances, because LEO's need to be thinking about tactics they can use to make initial contact and assessment beyond those distances.
    Good info. Thank you. Just one question, even though I understand the scenario, what do you mean by "Officer drops DL"? "Drop the weapon"? type stuff?
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    Good info. Thank you. Just one question, even though I understand the scenario, what do you mean by "Officer drops DL"? "Drop the weapon"? type stuff?
    Driver's License?

    If he meant Driver's License, I taught personnel to throw it in the suspect's face with the support hand while drawing with the strong hand.
    Last edited by T2C; 04-12-15 at 18:23.
    Train 2 Win

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Driver's License?

    If he meant Driver's License, I taught personnel to throw it in the suspect's face with the support hand while drawing with the strong hand.
    I did. Many street contacts happen at night, I like to get officers in the habit of using just the bottom of the beam to read the DL/ID - and having the rest of the beam on the subs chest - any untoward moves, light up into face, dropping DL as moving and drawing.

    T2C - I don't think there is a right or wrong. What really matters, though, is getting the officer to react and get rid of the item in his hands. I still remember the Constable Lunsford shooting video, he went to the ground with the subs DL and his (Lunsford's) flashlight still in his hands.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    I did. Many street contacts happen at night, I like to get officers in the habit of using just the bottom of the beam to read the DL/ID - and having the rest of the beam on the subs chest - any untoward moves, light up into face, dropping DL as moving and drawing.

    T2C - I don't think there is a right or wrong. What really matters, though, is getting the officer to react and get rid of the item in his hands. I still remember the Constable Lunsford shooting video, he went to the ground with the subs DL and his (Lunsford's) flashlight still in his hands.
    Exactly. You should have the mindset that it is OK to empty your hands, react and get dirty. I may do something that you see at a later date and ask "what was that asshole thinking?"

    In my humble opinion, when you stop thinking, you stop learning. When you fail to think and react under pressure, you die.
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  9. #49
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    I don't have near the training of many of you (and I'm not LEO,though I have trained with some). As far as shooting on the move goes though in 2011 I had the blessing of being able to shoot with USPSA Grandmaster Shannon Smith for about 4 months and pick his brains for about 9 mths. I recall one class in which I was the youngest at 49yrs old. He had what basically looked like an El Presidente Drill setup, however he wanted us (4 students) at the sound of the timer to move backwards, draw and engage the targets with 2 rounds each. The three older men (including one 20yr IDPA shooter) basically were backing up at a walking pace while engaging targets. When it came my turn I moved at about the same pace and did not do very well. He kind of chewed me out for "gaming it". He then told me he wanted me to react as if my life were in danger and "haul ass backwards" draw and engage. The second time I did, and did even worse.
    The next time he emphasized to haul ass but NOT SPEED UP MY TRIGGER PRESSES, Keep them separate (kinda of like the ole pat your head ,rub your stomach at the same time real fast challenge). Well, the next two times I was able to score A-zone hits 5 of 6 shots and the "flyer" was still on the silhouette (chest hit). Distances started at 7yrds and finished my last hit at about 18yrds.
    Now I know is moving straight back as opposed to lateral movement, but it was eye opening for me and believe with the proper instructor and practice one can become proficient at some shooting on the move.
    Just my 2 cents.
    "Do not mistake my silence for compliance or concession,
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    Cause that worked so well for Pickett and Lee.
    You must have missed the "caught in open, handgun in hand" portion

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