Movement in open area while engaged

[GunBugBit]

Walking, even at a "range walk" towards the bad guy while shooting is a great way to get doubled tapped.

That's what I was thinking. Not a smart tactic at all.

Walking straight toward the bad guy isn't effectively giving him a moving target, just one that's getting closer. Intimidation? Hey, if the guy is already shooting at a cop, I doubt if he's very intimidated.

[T2C]

In the law enforcement community "down range concerns" are a very important factor when determining how to deal with a threat. Terrain is also an important factor. Tactics we are taught in the military often are not suitable for LEO use unless you are working with a SWAT Team or a team that uses similar tactics.

If there were no innocents that could be hit by gunfire behind the threat and you are on flat hard terrain, such as concrete or asphalt, you want to move to contact as quickly as possible and neutralize the threat. If you are on terrain that gives you some cover when flattening out on the ground, then that would be an option while returning fire.

If you are LEO in an urban area, you cannot afford to send a lot of rounds down range to suppress the threat. Most LEO carry a limited number of rounds on their person and a LEO has to account for every round that is fired due to the possibility of hitting someone who is not involved. A mag dump would be out of the question in an urban environment. Hitting someone who is not involved and not hitting the threat would serve little or no purpose. A few shots to suppress the threat if no one was behind him/her, while moving to cover is a possibility.

Unless you are out in the middle of nowhere, you will have people down range. Spectators pop up all over the place when police exchange fire with violent attackers. In almost all the incidents that come to mind, officers reported civilians being downrange when they wanted to return fire on an attacker. In one instance where a friend of mine was shot, responding officers saw that half the patrons of a Denny's Restaurant downrange exited the restaurant and put themselves in a position to get hit by gunfire.

If you frequently train with your service pistol at 50 yards, then stopping for an instant and returning a precise shot or two may be the best course of action. Unfortunately, a lot of people have the mindset that training beyond 7 yards is a waste of time due to police shooting statistics and the shooting skills of the patrol officers and detectives at a lot of LEO agencies are not what they were 35 years ago. Dumping a lot of rounds toward the threat does not dramatically increase your chances of getting a hit and it is a poor tactic for LEO use. Being a good shot is not a guarantee that the officer will hit anything. In another LEO shooting incident, a close friend of mine, who is also a nationally ranked shooter, exchanged gunfire with a suspect at distance of under 6 feet. Twenty one rounds were exchanged and neither the officer or suspect were hit. When his service weapon ran dry the LEO moved to contact and struck the suspect in the head with his handgun. (In this case moving to contact worked, but not ideally.)

If you cannot accurately engage the threat at distance and no cover is available, boring in or moving to contact may be your only option. In order to rapidly engage the threat, you will have to expose yourself to increased risk.

[Ron3]

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

These Officers I work with have been trained to "move in, in a group if possible". Some will on their own, others will wait for friendlies before moving in, and others will not show up at all until the smoke clears. Personalities are very much in play even in this sort of thing..some folks work well together (often friends), some don't get along with a certain person or with anybody, some prefer to make arrests all by themselves. Ya'll know how it is.

I wish more time was spent on two man tactics, flanking, etc.

[Voodoo_Man]

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

These Officers I work with have been trained to "move in, in a group if possible". Some will on their own, others will wait for friendlies before moving in, and others will not show up at all until the smoke clears. Personalities are very much in play even in this sort of thing..some folks work well together (often friends), some don't get along with a certain person or with anybody, some prefer to make arrests all by themselves. Ya'll know how it is.

I wish more time was spent on two man tactics, flanking, etc.

Two man is the only way to do it safely and effectively.

[vicious_cb]

I believe Paul Howe said it best, in his entire SF career he has never engaged a target while on the move. You are either shooting or moving, not both. If you are shooting accurately while moving then you are not moving fast enough to avoid being a bullet trap. If you are moving at full speed its pretty much impossible to get good hits on target.

[26 Inf]

If you draw it out on a board and do the math (John Simpson's motto) 45 degree diagonal movement into a target at any range makes the bad guy work more to engage you - more than lateral movement, more than diagonal out. As someone mentioned, straight in or straight out does nothing to get you off the threat axis - it just gives the bad guy a bigger or smaller target along the trajectory he is throwing rounds down.

At 35 yards out, with no cover and an equally exposed bad guy, on any surface but concrete blacktop, I'm going prone, a good roll over prone position is the most stable position you can shoot from outside a ransom rest. High grass/weeds would hamper your ability to hit but offer you some initial concealment, the problem is if the guys rushes you and you don't put him down at range, you've cut down your mobility.

Go to the range, or any place, you don't need guns to do this, start at 50, have your buddy go prone and see how much you have to shoot at, at 35 it is still not to bad, at 20 to 25 you can pound rounds into the length of a prone guys body - if he doesn't put you down first. So the time we are dealing with is the time it takes to move from 35 to 20 yards - 45 feet.

No absolute answer, I spend time on the range moving with my hips going diagonal and my torso square into the threat as I can be while moving.

Caught flat out in the open, or at close range, the initial instinct to move, at an angle, is the greatest gift you can instill into a shooter. Years ago, after running and participating in hundreds of close/moderate force on force scenarios, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't guarantee that an officer would be in anything other than white, so the conclusion I came to was that in order to help them survive a close range encounter, the best thing I could do for them was ingrain an instinct to move, preferably moving as they draw. Still believe it.

[26 Inf]

I believe Paul Howe said it best, in his entire SF career he has never engaged a target while on the move. You are either shooting or moving, not both. If you are shooting accurately while moving then you are not moving fast enough to avoid being a bullet trap. If you are moving at full speed its pretty much impossible to get good hits on target.

I think before we make absolute statements, we need to put it into context. I'm 8 feet from you at night doing an FI, and suddenly you reach behind you, diagonal movement as I am drawing is better than just movement alone. Of course you could rush and try to smother whatever, but, nah, movement as you are drawing and shooting (or deciding not to shoot ) is a key skill at that range.

[vicious_cb]

I think before we make absolute statements, we need to put it into context. I'm 8 feet from you at night doing an FI, and suddenly you reach behind you, diagonal movement as I am drawing is better than just movement alone. Of course you could rush and try to smother whatever, but, nah, movement as you are drawing and shooting (or deciding not to shoot ) is a key skill at that range.

Getting off the line of attack while drawing is definitely the correct action. Civilian/LE encounters are typically at extremely close range, but if its anything past extreme close range you CAN definitely apply military TTP to the situation, hit the deck and start engaging the target. Even the curb is a good option of nothing else is around you.

[T2C]

Getting off the line of attack while drawing is definitely the correct action.

Moving off the line of attack when you first engage is something we taught at work for years. Teaching the concept was in response to LEO in our area who did not and died from gunshot wounds.

If you are caught out in the open without cover you still want to move, but need to minimize the threat quickly. That may require that you close the distance between you and the threat rapidly.

[vicious_cb]

For those of you that are debating weather you should shoot on the move, record a video of yourself actually moving while trying get good hits, even if the targets are at relatively close range. You will be surprised.