Pretty good article on FBI switch to 9mm (now w/ RFP)

[Koshinn]

http://p2t2solutions.com/fbi-finally...s-for-its-use/

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

· Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

· Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

· Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

· In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

· Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

· The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

· LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

· Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

· 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

· The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

It goes into more detail in the article.

[T2C]

As local, county and state agencies secure funding to replace their service pistols, I believe you will see most of them follow suite.

[WillBrink]

http://p2t2solutions.com/fbi-finally...s-for-its-use/



It goes into more detail in the article.

A good read with details people know if they researched, but many still believe in "stopping power" and other mythology. Only claim in that articles that raised an eyebrow was:


" 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI"

That is news to me. It was my understanding that although the terminal ballistics are now very similar, and the net benefits of the 9mm outweigh the potential cons, there' superior terminal ballistics from .40, .45. Again, the differences now so minor, and the benefits of 9mm (low recoil, increased capacity, etc) makes the larger service calibers net benefit, goes to the 9mm.

That all things being equal - gun, design/brand of ammo, barrel length, etc - the 9mm out performs those other calibers in standardized testing? I'd need to see a source/cite on that one as it does not jibe. Maybe I'm out of the loop of latest greatest testing data.

PS, did you read some of the comments after that article? Just when you think people are not that ignorant of what's now considered "no duh" info, they prove you wrong. You have to read some of them to believe it. Such as:

"The army selected the 1911 for stopping power, I have been shooting this gun with 230 gr hardball for 35 years, placement is required with only 7 in the mag but it only takes one center mass."

Yup, that's a real comment....

[Koshinn]

There are certain topics in which I avoid reading comments for fear of bursting a blood vessel or wasting all day replying to people. Caliber debates among random strangers on a news article is one of those things.

[texasgunhand]

I totally agree with them going with 9mm. Newer projectiles have all but put to rest that the 9mm doesnt have the power to get the job done. With less recoil and ability to get on target faster it definitely has potential especially in the civilian market.

I had this discussion with a trainer that ditched his .40 to go back to the 9mm concept. I still believe in to each their own,i have a .45 etc that i use all the time and was my go to pistol caliber. But i have also switched back to the 9mm after 25 years. I tryed the .40 but if iam gona deal with that kind of recoil ill go back to a wheel gun in .357 magnum. Multiple strikes from any of them will more than get the job done these days. The only down fall to the 9mm is if not loaded with some kind of hollow point , if fmj are used,the over penetration is really bad. But so are the .40 and .357 etc

[kapusta]

Interesting that they say 70-80% of shots don't connect. Wouldn't it seem logical that if that was the case, you'd want the hit to be with something substantial? It's just my opinion, but I don't put a lot of stock in what the FBI "experts" try to sell at times. Personally, I'd give more creedence to the Border Patrols opinions on such things. Again, just an opinion. 12-18 inches is what the FBI considers an effective wound channel? Holy crap! Who are they shooting! I always thought the desired performance was for the bullet to expend its energy IN the target, not punch all the way through. Oh well, they're the FBI and have all the answers.

[scooter22]

Interesting that they say 70-80% of shots don't connect. Wouldn't it seem logical that if that was the case, you'd want the hit to be with something substantial? It's just my opinion, but I don't put a lot of stock in what the FBI "experts" try to sell at times. Personally, I'd give more creedence to the Border Patrols opinions on such things. Again, just an opinion. 12-18 inches is what the FBI considers an effective wound channel? Holy crap! Who are they shooting! I always thought the desired performance was for the bullet to expend its energy IN the target, not punch all the way through. Oh well, they're the FBI and have all the answers.

1) Clearly they're saying that 9mm is substantial...

2) Have you measured your A-P diameter? It's larger than you think.

[deanq]

I think they are insinuating that a lower recoiling round would be more controllable, and lead to a higher hit percentage. Reference the 3rd bullet from the bottom.

[Toyoland66]

Interesting that they say 70-80% of shots don't connect. Wouldn't it seem logical that if that was the case, you'd want the hit to be with something substantial? It's just my opinion, but I don't put a lot of stock in what the FBI "experts" try to sell at times. Personally, I'd give more creedence to the Border Patrols opinions on such things. Again, just an opinion. 12-18 inches is what the FBI considers an effective wound channel? Holy crap! Who are they shooting! I always thought the desired performance was for the bullet to expend its energy IN the target, not punch all the way through. Oh well, they're the FBI and have all the answers.

12-18" in gel.

[Molon]

Again, just an opinion. 12-18 inches is what the FBI considers an effective wound channel? Holy crap! Who are they shooting!

The FBI didn’t just pull the 12”-18” penetration requirement out of their a$$. While the anteroposterior diameter of the thorax of an average adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature, so you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”. You can’t always count on the bad guy to be squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him (and all the while the bad guy not shooting back at you.)

If a bullet has to penetrate the bad guys right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the bad guy, (say from a lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want the bullet to pass through the left ventricle.











During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight (fired by FBI Special Agent Dove) hit Platt in the right arm, continued into Platt's thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the limited penetration of the 9mm Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. Had the bullet penetrated just a few more inches, it would have perforated Platt’s heart. How many lives might have been saved that day if the 9mm ammunition used by the FBI agents that day had met a penetration requirement of 12”-18”?



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