Pretty good article on FBI switch to 9mm (now w/ RFP)

[Waylander]

What? The fbi uses ammo, not design it. It took almost 10 years to get 9mm to perform on the same level as other cals. The tech had to develop over time.

Thats like saying if the iPhone 6 was invented in 08, would they have ever made a 4s?

9 is definately the way to go now, but that was not always the case. A couple of inches in the wrong direction is huge.

Your first point is an issue of semantics. "They" as in the FBI or the people by proxy they tasked with testing rounds.

The FBI rationale was flawed anyway.
Their reaction to the shooting was the perfect storm and tipping point for them to adopt a new caliber and gun. So instead of dropping the 9mm instantly, buying costlier ammo and replacing existing handguns, what if they had dedicated those resources to pay for even more training than they adopted in the aftermath?

I believe your logic is flawed along the same lines theirs was. There were more common sense factors they should have considered rather than just penetration and expansion. They ignored the fact that hit to miss ratio by FBI agents was already terrible. Instead of focusing more effort on training, they adopted a heavier recoiling round and heavier gun which could only worsen the ratio even more. Hit ratio being so poor, why move to a handgun that can carry less rounds? If a shooter has less likelihood of hitting their target, what's the point of using a more damaging round? It's like arguing .308 is better than 5.56 because it causes more damage in one hit.

Do we just assume that the first shot is the most critical and follow up shots are less critical? I believe that is counter to the points we now know to be true.



http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html

There were some elements of the FBI test that were either controversial or confusing. Based largely on Platt's chest wound it was concluded that a minimum of 12 inches of penetration would be an unbreakable rule. A bullet that didn't penetrate 12 inches… even if it made 11¾ inches… was classified as a failure. The success rate was quickly translated into a measurement of best by both civilians and other law enforcement agencies. Of course it wasn't.

We also have to remember that the FBI test procedure deals with a homogenous medium. In the real world you'd have to try pretty hard to find 12 inches of uninterrupted muscle to shoot through. So it is a little limited. But people want, so very badly, for somebody just to tell them what's best.

http://www.thegunzone.com/fbi-guns.html

I'm sure some of them had the best of intentions. Whether intentionally or not though, I also believe they were giving false confidence to FBI agents and anyone who adopted the 10mm or .40.

Hall proposed researching the 10mm as well. When the administration balked, Hall reminded his bosses that a nation was watching them; FBI was a trend setter, and if they adopted a round that turned out to be eclipsed by something else, a disservice would have been done to law enforcement itself as well as to the Bureau.

This sounds like their selection could have also been conveniently skewed in the direction of the 10mm.

So, with the Colt's Delta Elite in production, and the munitions people adding 10mm rounds to their catalogues, when S&W introduced their Third Generation handgun line in 1988, it came as no great surprise that it included a 10-series of auto-pistols. And given the traditionally close relationship between the forces in Quantico and Springfield, Massachusetts, it was almost like a harmonic convergence… and in short order it was announced that the FBI would be adopting as its new duty weapon, a Smith & Wesson 10mm 3rdGen pistol, the Model 1076/NMS.

The FBI believed they were outgunned in Miami, while it is true they were outgunned - a Ruger Mini-14 and a revolver (IIRC) compared to several auto-pistols, a shotgun, a couple of small frame revolvers (J-frame), and at least one K frame - they were more victims of attitude and training.

So, you are hunting two bank robbers showing an escalating pattern of violence in their robberies, that you know have killed at least one person, and left another for dead in the everglades, who you know, based on evidence at the scenes of those two shootings, have expended a considerable amount of ammo in weapons practice, and you leave your shotguns in the back seats of your cars, leave all M16's in the safe cause it's a pain in the ass to get them out (except one - that agent was out of his car when this all went down) and are not wearing vests.

That is an attitude problem, those guys expected compliance when the bad guys were faced with the FBI and it didn't go that way.

So after that tragedy, much to their credit, the FBI did institute some changes in training, including high-risk vehicle stop training. They also listened, cries from the field were for more firepower (autos versus revolvers) and more stopping power. John Hall, head of the FTU, was there with his 10mm Delta Elite. I met Mr.Hall on a trip to the FBI Academy and found him to be a true gentleman. Of course this might be due to the fact that he gave me a 10mm Smith, a couple hundred rounds of 10mm and then took me to an unoccupied range and let me shoot. Hall is a great legal mind, he and Urey Patrick have been driving forces in the education of law enforcement officers nationwide on use-of-force issues.

Those guys, Hall in particular, were completely sincere in selecting what they felt was the best cartridge for the FBI - then the problem became building a gun around it. At the time their studies were cutting edge, well beyond anything else in existence.

Here is an article on the acceptance/development of the 10mm by the FBI - http://www.pointshooting.com/1a10mm.htm

The downloaded 10mm obviously morphed into the .40, which I had no problem shooting for years, until I came to the conclusion I can shoot a whole bunch more 9mm markedly faster.

Obviously, the FBI feels the same.

Thanks for the informative post. I also have no issues with .40 or 10mm. I own and shoot .40 but also agree with you on 9mm.

[Stengun]

Howdy,

On a different gun forum someone asked if M193 would be a good choice for SD/HD ammo.

Several members said "Yes." and I said "No."

The other members stated that their "opinion" was based on the fact that it was the ammo that they used based on the "advice" from the LGS and I based my opinion on the fact that I had used it in combat and that it had failed miserably and the fact that the US Armed Forces had used it in combat and it had failed miserably and was replaced with a "superior" round, the M855.

I even went into details about how the M193 was designed around a 20" barreled 1-14 twist ( later switched to 1-12 twist ) M-16 and the OP was using a 16" barreled 1-9 twist shorty.

OP still went with M193.

Back in the "Day" the FBI used S&W .357 Mag revolvers with full power ammo. The "new generation" of agents were more of the book worm type and they switched to .38 Spl +P ammo for reduced recoil. Then for the same reason they switched to 9mm.

After the failed Miami shootout they switched to the 10mm but since most of the agents were even more of the bookworm type and females that could not handle the size and recoil of the 10mm, they switched to the .40S&W ( known by some as the .40 Short & Weak ).

Fastforward to 2015 where the women agents are more macho than the men agents and a less recoiling sidearm has been requested.

Enter the "Wonder 9" with its magical bullet.

Paul

P.S. I've used the 9mm in combat, QCB, etc and have seen it fail miserably.

[DirectTo]

P.S. I've used the 9mm in combat, QCB, etc and have seen it fail miserably.

I'm going to assume by combat you mean war, not LE, in which case I'd hardly say we can compare 9mm NATO ball rounds to modern hollow point rounds.

[El Cid]

Howdy,

On a different gun forum someone asked if M193 would be a good choice for SD/HD ammo.

Several members said "Yes." and I said "No."

The other members stated that their "opinion" was based on the fact that it was the ammo that they used based on the "advice" from the LGS and I based my opinion on the fact that I had used it in combat and that it had failed miserably and the fact that the US Armed Forces had used it in combat and it had failed miserably and was replaced with a "superior" round, the M855.

I even went into details about how the M193 was designed around a 20" barreled 1-14 twist ( later switched to 1-12 twist ) M-16 and the OP was using a 16" barreled 1-9 twist shorty.

OP still went with M193.

Back in the "Day" the FBI used S&W .357 Mag revolvers with full power ammo. The "new generation" of agents were more of the book worm type and they switched to .38 Spl +P ammo for reduced recoil. Then for the same reason they switched to 9mm.

After the failed Miami shootout they switched to the 10mm but since most of the agents were even more of the bookworm type and females that could not handle the size and recoil of the 10mm, they switched to the .40S&W ( known by some as the .40 Short & Weak ).

Fastforward to 2015 where the women agents are more macho than the men agents and a less recoiling sidearm has been requested.

Enter the "Wonder 9" with its magical bullet.

Paul

P.S. I've used the 9mm in combat, QCB, etc and have seen it fail miserably.

Someone should hide your keyboard so you stop imparting your "knowledge" on us.

If you choose to ignore the science that's on you. Stay stuck in 1990 if you want. But don't come in here expecting anyone to thank you for sounding like a gun shop commando. Oh, and you don't know squat about the FBI agents who serve our great nation daily. I've worked closely with them for several years and you're as misinformed about them as you are defensive ballistics.

[26 Inf]

While I very much respect your testing and research, I have to disagree with you here even though I realize your point is mostly hypothetical.
How likely are you to be in a gunfight where you aren't positioned in the front and between the arms of an attacker? I would say during most shootouts, unless they are of this sort where multiple agents aren't attempting to kill one suspect, then side/arm shots and definitely back shots aren't likely. So at most angles where the shot wouldn't have entered Platt's arm or been a shot in the back somewhere between the arms and spine, it probably would have reached his thorax and perforated his heart. That's even discounting that at most angles from the rear, regardless of height of the shot, a spine shot would have been deadly.

For the FBI to have created so much change based on one shot and how it could have hypothetically been more lethal is simply ridiculous in my opinion.

About that side angle thing, I don't keep track of wound patterns in bad guys, but I do officers.

Most officers are killed by shots to the head, regardless of whether they were wearing vests or not. The torso ranks next, for both officers overall and when separated into officers who were killed while wearing ballistic vests.

For the last several decades 44% to 48% of the officers killed while wearing vests were killed by shots that entered between the side panels of the vest, or through the armhole area.

So I think there is a degree of credibility to ensuring rounds penetrate sufficiently from all angles.

[DirectTo]

About that side angle thing, I don't keep track of wound patterns in bad guys, but I do officers.

Most officers are killed by shots to the head, regardless of whether they were wearing vests or not. The torso ranks next, for both officers overall and when separated into officers who were killed while wearing ballistic vests.

For the last several decades 44% to 48% of the officers killed while wearing vests were killed by shots that entered between the side panels of the vest, or through the armhole area.

So I think there is a degree of credibility to ensuring rounds penetrate sufficiently from all angles.

In your experience what kind of ammo are you seeing the average thug on the street using? They grab HP ammo or the cheapest crap from the local Walmart?

[26 Inf]

Back in the "Day" the FBI used S&W .357 Mag revolvers with full power ammo. The "new generation" of agents were more of the book worm type and they switched to .38 Spl +P ammo for reduced recoil. Then for the same reason they switched to 9mm.

After the failed Miami shootout they switched to the 10mm but since most of the agents were even more of the bookworm type and females that could not handle the size and recoil of the 10mm, they switched to the .40S&W ( known by some as the .40 Short & Weak ).

When was that day? Back in the 70's the FBI issued S&W Model 10's with 2 or 3 inch barrels - that was a .38 Special Revolver; they next went to the 3 inch Model 13 in .357 which was the issue revolver until they went to auto-pistols. Approved loads were 158gr HP in .38+P and the 145grain Winchester Silvertip. Neither one of those compares to the wrist thumping 165 Federal JSP I carried on duty during that time period.

This from a retired FBI Agent: The 158 gr LSWCHP+P came on line about 1975 plus or minus a year. The manufacturer was W-W and for a couple of years Federal got the contract. Prior to the LSWCHP+P the issued round was the 158 gr LRN.
The Bureau also had .357 ammo for issue if an agent carried something in .357. However, even if carrying a .357 gun it had to be loaded with the .38 LSWCHP+P and the .357 ammo was to be carried for reload only.

The FBI went to the auto-pistol a little later than many police agencies, I believe it was 1989 or 1990 when they began issuing the S&W 1076 to new agents.

They never did shoot a full bore 10mm load, instead the first round they used was a midrange 180grain round. The first 180gr .40 closely duplicated this round.

[26 Inf]

In your experience what kind of ammo are you seeing the average thug on the street using? They grab HP ammo or the cheapest crap from the local Walmart?

My experience isn't current. I don't know of any source that tracks projectile type.

In 2004 - 2013, 474 officers were killed with firearms. 345 with handguns; 87 with rifles; 40 with shotguns. 9mm killed most officers @ 92 (over 25% of the handgun deaths); .40 was next @ 67; .38 was next @ 42; then .45 @ 39; then .380 @ 29.

Rifles killed 87 officers; calibers used - 7.62x39 @ 32; 5.56/.223 @ 21; 30.06 @ 6; .22 @ 5

Shotguns killed 40 officers; 12ga @ 35; 20ga @ 3.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc..._2004-2013.xls

[BuzzinSATX]

Exactly.

It reads like a description of a Glock 17 and 19.

Not based on the requirement that finger grooves are not allowed. Maybe Glock will finally given them up...

[Stengun]

Howdy 26 Inf,

When was that day? Back in the 70's the FBI issued S&W Model 10's with 2 or 3 inch barrels - that was a .38 Special Revolver; they next went to the 3 inch Model 13 in .357 which was the issue revolver until they went to auto-pistols. Approved loads were 158gr HP in .38+P and the 145grain Winchester Silvertip. Neither one of those compares to the wrist thumping 165 Federal JSP I carried on duty during that time period.

This from a retired FBI Agent: The 158 gr LSWCHP+P came on line about 1975 plus or minus a year. The manufacturer was W-W and for a couple of years Federal got the contract. Prior to the LSWCHP+P the issued round was the 158 gr LRN.
The Bureau also had .357 ammo for issue if an agent carried something in .357. However, even if carrying a .357 gun it had to be loaded with the .38 LSWCHP+P and the .357 ammo was to be carried for reload only.

The FBI went to the auto-pistol a little later than many police agencies, I believe it was 1989 or 1990 when they began issuing the S&W 1076 to new agents.

They never did shoot a full bore 10mm load, instead the first round they used was a midrange 180grain round. The first 180gr .40 closely duplicated this round.

For myself back in the "Day" usually means the 80's ( I'm 51yo ).

Some of the early issue 10mm used the full size 1006 and Win 175gr SilverTip ammo. I still have a box if it somewhere in my ammo stash.

One thing to remember about FBI "issue" guns and ammo was that as seen by the guns and ammo that was used in the Miami shootout, there was a hodgepodge of handguns and ammo.

Paul