Pretty good article on FBI switch to 9mm (now w/ RFP)

[Koshinn]

Interesting that they say 70-80% of shots don't connect. Wouldn't it seem logical that if that was the case, you'd want the hit to be with something substantial?

Lower recoil means faster accurate follow up shots means quicker hits on target.

More ammo means you'll likely hit the target before having to reload, or hit the target more before having to reload, or maybe not even have to reload.

.45 ACP and .40 S&W don't make a much of difference (if any) in damage to a human body when compared to 9mm.

[Waylander]

The FBI didn’t just pull the 12”-18” penetration requirement out of their a$$. While the anteroposterior diameter of the thorax of an average adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature, so you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”. You can’t always count on the bad guy to be squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him (and all the while the bad guy not shooting back at you.)

If a bullet has to penetrate the bad guys right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the bad guy, (say from a lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want the bullet to pass through the left ventricle.

During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight (fired by FBI Special Agent Dove) hit Platt in the right arm, continued into Platt's thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the limited penetration of the 9mm Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. Had the bullet penetrated just a few more inches, it would have perforated Platt’s heart. How many lives might have been saved that day if the 9mm ammunition used by the FBI agents that day had met a penetration requirement of 12”-18”?



....

Did they justify ditching the 9mm just based on Platt or more of the shooters? Either way, their overreaction is interesting based on the WST and a couple of inches.

If they would have went to the drawing board and gotten the bullet design to penetrate the gel further it would be interesting to see if the 10mm and 40S&W would have ever come to be.

[Slater]

Presumably Glock or S&W are the safe bets?:

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=b5...34465de4c674dc

[7.62NATO]

G17/19

[GTF425]

G17/19

Exactly.

It reads like a description of a Glock 17 and 19.

[26 Inf]

Did they justify ditching the 9mm just based on Platt or more of the shooters? Either way, their overreaction is interesting based on the WST and a couple of inches.

If they would have went to the drawing board and gotten the bullet design to penetrate the gel further it would be interesting to see if the 10mm and 40S&W would have ever come to be.

The FBI believed they were outgunned in Miami, while it is true they were outgunned - a Ruger Mini-14 and a revolver (IIRC) compared to several auto-pistols, a shotgun, a couple of small frame revolvers (J-frame), and at least one K frame - they were more victims of attitude and training.

So, you are hunting two bank robbers showing an escalating pattern of violence in their robberies, that you know have killed at least one person, and left another for dead in the everglades, who you know, based on evidence at the scenes of those two shootings, have expended a considerable amount of ammo in weapons practice, and you leave your shotguns in the back seats of your cars, leave all M16's in the safe cause it's a pain in the ass to get them out (except one - that agent was out of his car when this all went down) and are not wearing vests.

That is an attitude problem, those guys expected compliance when the bad guys were faced with the FBI and it didn't go that way.

So after that tragedy, much to their credit, the FBI did institute some changes in training, including high-risk vehicle stop training. They also listened, cries from the field were for more firepower (autos versus revolvers) and more stopping power. John Hall, head of the FTU, was there with his 10mm Delta Elite. I met Mr.Hall on a trip to the FBI Academy and found him to be a true gentleman. Of course this might be due to the fact that he gave me a 10mm Smith, a couple hundred rounds of 10mm and then took me to an unoccupied range and let me shoot. Hall is a great legal mind, he and Urey Patrick have been driving forces in the education of law enforcement officers nationwide on use-of-force issues.

Those guys, Hall in particular, were completely sincere in selecting what they felt was the best cartridge for the FBI - then the problem became building a gun around it. At the time their studies were cutting edge, well beyond anything else in existence.

Here is an article on the acceptance/development of the 10mm by the FBI - http://www.pointshooting.com/1a10mm.htm

The downloaded 10mm obviously morphed into the .40, which I had no problem shooting for years, until I came to the conclusion I can shoot a whole bunch more 9mm markedly faster.

Obviously, the FBI feels the same.

[K1tt3n5]

I know it won't make a difference, but it would be nice if h&k saw the FBIs request for a new 9mm as a reason to produce a compact vp9. I can dream.

And then I read
C.4.6.c It is not allowable to have a magazine catch which is activated by a downward movement.

I did notice that it says finger grooves are not allowed.

[MegademiC]

Did they justify ditching the 9mm just based on Platt or more of the shooters? Either way, their overreaction is interesting based on the WST and a couple of inches.

If they would have went to the drawing board and gotten the bullet design to penetrate the gel further it would be interesting to see if the 10mm and 40S&W would have ever come to be.

What? The fbi uses ammo, not design it. It took almost 10 years to get 9mm to perform on the same level as other cals. The tech had to develop over time.

Thats like saying if the iPhone 6 was invented in 08, would they have ever made a 4s?

9 is definately the way to go now, but that was not always the case. A couple of inches in the wrong direction is huge.

[T2C]

During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight (fired by FBI Special Agent Dove) hit Platt in the right arm, continued into Platt's thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the limited penetration of the 9mm Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. Had the bullet penetrated just a few more inches, it would have perforated Platt’s heart. How many lives might have been saved that day if the 9mm ammunition used by the FBI agents that day had met a penetration requirement of 12”-18”? ...

Our agency stopped using Winchester Silvertip after a shooting incident in which the hollow points were filled with jacket material and they did not open up. Some projectiles passed all the way through the suspect and were stopped by the other side of the jacket. Then we transitioned to a +P+ round that had it's own issues.

The justification to transition to .40 S&W was it penetrated auto glass better than the 9mm ammunition offered at the time. A transition back to 9mm is being considered.

The current offerings in 9mm defensive ammunition are light years ahead of what was offered 30 years ago, so it comes as no surprise that the FBI is leaning in this direction.

[Slater]

Looks like the FBI wants the pistols to be available (as an option) in Flat Dark Earth and Ranger Green.