Zeroing in Full Kit

[Wake27]

I ran about 165 personnel from my BN through a regular M4 zero and qual range this way two weeks ago (why I asked in the first place) and am sold. This is absolutely the way to go if you have very weak shooters. I think in an ideal world, for most shooters, it should be: zero slick, confirm zero in kit, qualify in full kit (as is the standard now), and run all training except BRM (focusing on fundamentals) in kit. But for the guys in a support BN, that shoot twice a year at best, and get only a shitty PMI from their armorers, zeroing in full kit is doing more harm than good. They already have way too much to focus on that adding all of the extra gear, which is always poorly designed and bulky, is simply counter productive. There were people zeroing three and four times. Some were shooting with just their front sight post and the window of their CCO. Others thought that because the first group they shot with the CCO was really high, irons must be better. The amount and quality of coaching that a lot of them have received is absolutely terrible. Zeroing slick is definitely the best way to go when working with these types. There are enough variables as is. We had them keep their zero targets, and then when it came to qual, if their scores were terrible because groups were decent but consistently off target, a simple confirmation zero in kit was all that was necessary. Food for thought.


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[Maple Leaf pilgrim]

I ran about 165 personnel from my BN through a regular M4 zero and qual range this way two weeks ago (why I asked in the first place) and am sold. This is absolutely the way to go if you have very weak shooters. I think in an ideal world, for most shooters, it should be: zero slick, confirm zero in kit, and then run all training except BRM (focusing on fundamentals) in kit. But for the guys in a support BN, that shoot twice a year at best, and get only a shitty PMI from their armorers, zeroing in full kit is doing more harm than good. They already have way too much to focus on that adding all of the extra gear, which is always poorly designed and bulky, is simply counter productive. There were people zeroing three and four times. Some were shooting with just their front sight post and the window of their CCO. Others thought that because the first group they shot with the CCO was really high, irons must be better. The amount and quality of coaching that a lot of them have received is absolutely terrible. Zeroing slick is definitely the best way to go when working with these types. There are enough variables as is. We had them keep their zero targets, and then when it came to qual, if their scores were terrible because groups were decent but consistently off target, a simple confirmation zero in kit was all that was necessary. Food for thought.


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I'm going to be a dick here.

Your post here tells me that these soldiers have forgotten their fundamentals. If these guys don't remember the basic steps to firing a rifle on the range while in kit, what the hell makes you think they'll stand a chance against X-rays on the pointy end? I know you have got bugger all for training budget and probably have a serious one-two punch of range time and training time to throw your tasking on the ropes, but get these soldiers back to basics.

There, dick mode is disengaged, you may now express your displeasure.

-S.

[Wake27]

I'm going to be a dick here.

Your post here tells me that these soldiers have forgotten their fundamentals. If these guys don't remember the basic steps to firing a rifle on the range while in kit, what the hell makes you think they'll stand a chance against X-rays on the pointy end? I know you have got bugger all for training budget and probably have a serious one-two punch of range time and training time to throw your tasking on the ropes, but get these soldiers back to basics.

There, dick mode is disengaged, you may now express your displeasure.

-S.

Not even. Most of them were never even taught fundamentals. Many of those that were, were taught incorrectly. I do agree with you and I'm working with some good dudes to improve the situation, but I don't have much influence at my level unfortunately so if the boss only wants to pay lip service to marksmanship, there isn't a ton that I can do.

[cop1211]

I ran the SWAT range day last week. I wanted to run it in full kit, heavy vest, helmet, comm, gloves etc. I got shot down by our team leader because it was "To hot" we ran the whole day in plate carriers, and soft hats, which we never wear during a mission.

[Paul Howe]

Just a couple quick comments.

If I had the time, I would do a short session slick then go to full gear.

If I did not have the time, I would do it in gear. I would have shooters adjust gear before, during and after the shooting sessions to get it right. If gear can impact your shooting, you need to adjust it or adjust for it. Pistol is a prime example. Many body armor styles do not allow you to lock your arms when pushing out. This means that when you shoot Isosceles, you shoot muscle vs. locked. By putting on the gear, you find out you need to drop a firing foot back to get your lock. In short, gear does have an impact.

Next, as for qualifying support troops, that has always been the case. Let me ask you this. If you were submitting an NCOER or Award for a soldier to your S1, would they let you write it any way or format you liked? Hell no, they would kick it back until you got it right. The same applies to marksmanship. Either you get it right and make the hit or you retrain until you do. Yet we put more of an emphasis on paperwork vs. life saving skills. Why? Command emphasis and laziness.

As for the heat and environmental conditions, be smart. Summers in Texas can be brutal and we try and use common sense. Start training when the sun comes up 0600 and get 4-5 hours out of them in their gear. Then either do something in modified uniform or go into the classroom. Or do dry fire in the AC. Or run the O course slick. The mind can only absorb what the ass can endure.

Finally, I know part time SWAT agencies that train in all their gear in the heat of Summer or up to their asses in snow in the winter. They will kick ass and out perform most if not all of the full time teams I have seen. The same applies to Mil units as well. Leaders and trainers just need to use common sense.

Paul

[Wake27]

Just a couple quick comments.

If I had the time, I would do a short session slick then go to full gear.

If I did not have the time, I would do it in gear. I would have shooters adjust gear before, during and after the shooting sessions to get it right. If gear can impact your shooting, you need to adjust it or adjust for it. Pistol is a prime example. Many body armor styles do not allow you to lock your arms when pushing out. This means that when you shoot Isosceles, you shoot muscle vs. locked. By putting on the gear, you find out you need to drop a firing foot back to get your lock. In short, gear does have an impact.

Next, as for qualifying support troops, that has always been the case. Let me ask you this. If you were submitting an NCOER or Award for a soldier to your S1, would they let you write it any way or format you liked? Hell no, they would kick it back until you got it right. The same applies to marksmanship. Either you get it right and make the hit or you retrain until you do. Yet we put more of an emphasis on paperwork vs. life saving skills. Why? Command emphasis and laziness.

As for the heat and environmental conditions, be smart. Summers in Texas can be brutal and we try and use common sense. Start training when the sun comes up 0600 and get 4-5 hours out of them in their gear. Then either do something in modified uniform or go into the classroom. Or do dry fire in the AC. Or run the O course slick. The mind can only absorb what the ass can endure.

Finally, I know part time SWAT agencies that train in all their gear in the heat of Summer or up to their asses in snow in the winter. They will kick ass and out perform most if not all of the full time teams I have seen. The same applies to Mil units as well. Leaders and trainers just need to use common sense.

Paul

Thanks for your continued comments. Unfortunately, you're all too right about the S1 thing.


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