Zenith/MKE Pistols: Z-43 versus Z-5

[MountainRaven]

I've had a hankering for a roller lock for a while now and with the Turkish contract guns being fairly readily available and bereft of the hit-and-miss reputations held by many of the American makers (like Vector), I think I would like to get one.

Now, the issue basically boils down to this: I was originally wanting to do an HK53-alike and SBR it. Maybe have a full-sized rifle to go with it and use for when I'm feeling all special snowflake and heading out of state to do training. Zenith does not import an HK53-alike. So that leaves me with two options: A Z-5 pistol for compactness (either the P-model or the RS-model) or a Z-43 for 5.56mm goodness.

If/when Zenith gets their "custom shop" up and running and 922(r)'ing the Z-43 rifles, I might add one to the collection as the carbine counter-part... or save some pennies and get something from Dakota Tactical for the same role.

So, benefits and drawbacks as I see them of one versus the other:

Z-43:
5.56mm
LGS stocks (inexplicably) HK factory HK33 magazines
Traditional HK diopter: Three peeps and a V
Pinned muzzle brake
Not as compact as I would like, at just over 23 inches... making it only somewhat shorter than a Tavor or my Krebs with the stock folded
It's going to be loud, even once the brake comes off

Z-5:
Compact - or super-compact
Lots of goodies available: SureFire weaponlight handguards (albeit not for the P), B&T folding stocks, tri-lug flash hiders, &c.
No dinky brake and the whole thing is set-up to be easily canned
Not as blasty indoors
Shorter magazines are available for use in car or deploying from a sneaky bag
9mm
Choice of four peeps or four notches - and I'm not fond of either option
Magazines are not available locally
$175 more expensive at most retailers

Obviously, the Z-5 is going to be more of a niche weapon and lacking somewhat in the "stopping power" department (kept in the car or thrown in a smaller duffel for cross-state travel). But it's also not going to be as horribly deafening or blinding if touched off indoors or inside a vehicle.

Anybody have any thoughts they'd like to add? Thanks!

[KalashniKEV]

This post doesn't make any sense.

Should you buy a motorcycle, or a jetski? I don't know... buy whatever you want.

Some of this insanity warrants comment, however:

1) You don't want to spend money on a Contract gun and then pay some "Custom Shop" labor and parts to junk it out with inferior US commercial parts. The old rods came out easy, and these are said to be easier to remove.

2) HK53 is a retarded weapon.

3) Your LGS has '93 mags?? How much?

4) It's not a pinned brake... it's a regular HK flash hider.

5) It's not a non-standard handguard... it's a regular HK33 handguard.

6) Stock options are basically "all." You can run an MP5 collapsible (though it will be a little shorter), B&T or Choate sidefolder, cut down G3 stocks, AR adapter... I literally can't imagine more stock options being available for any other platform.

7) You're going to use it inside a car?!? (Holy shit!)

8) MKE MP5 mags are like $40... POF are like $30... they are the same as HK. ATI mags suck.

[MountainRaven]

Should you buy a motorcycle, or a jetski?

More like, should I buy a BMW touring bike or a Harley?

1) You don't want to spend money on a Contract gun and then pay some "Custom Shop" labor and parts to junk it out with inferior US commercial parts. The old rods came out easy, and these are said to be easier to remove.

Talk to Zenith or Dakota.

I'm pretty sure no matter what, you're going to be stuck with putting "inferior US commercial parts" in the gun, unless you're going to keep it as a pistol. Unless 922(r) was repealed while I wasn't paying attention.

3) Your LGS has '93 mags?? How much?

$90. But I have an in and can get them for significantly less.

4) It's not a pinned brake... it's a regular HK flash hider.

You better call Zenith and tell them that they're wrong about the product that they're importing. And Tim at MAC while you're at it.

Z-43 P Pistol - Zenith Firearms

5) It's not a non-standard handguard... it's a regular HK33 handguard.

Thank you for the useful tidbit.

6) Stock options are basically "all." You can run an MP5 collapsible (though it will be a little shorter), B&T or Choate sidefolder, cut down G3 stocks, AR adapter... I literally can't imagine more stock options being available for any other platform.

It's my understanding that the stocks are slightly different between the MP5 and HK33/53/93 and that using an MP5 stock in an HK33/53/93 can damage the stock.

8) MKE MP5 mags are like $40... POF are like $30... they are the same as HK. ATI mags suck.

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hp...22138787_n.jpg

Another useful tidbit, however....

The only MKE magazines I can find are the polymer ones. Which apparently aren't particularly good.

[interfan]

It's my understanding that the stocks are slightly different between the MP5 and HK33/53/93 and that using an MP5 stock in an HK33/53/93 can damage the stock.

It depends on which stock. The standard MP5 A3 collapsible - maybe since they can be a little fragile to begin with. Fixed A2 stocks, B&T folders, Choate stocks, Spuhr M4 adapters - no.

Another useful tidbit, however....

The only MKE magazines I can find are the polymer ones. Which apparently aren't particularly good.

You can find HK factory mags for $38 if you don't mind older ones from HKParts.net (FYI- they're perfectly fine). The MKE polymer mags I have are basically 100% reliable. One set has seen around 9000 rounds through them with both a HK94 (converted to SBR) and a POF MP5 (SBR) licensed clone. YMMV, but they aren't bad mags. The only issue I have seen with them is a tight fit in my friend's Special Weapons clone, but I would suspect the magwell, bolt and carrier aren't even remotely close to in spec and that is the issue. The MKE Z5 series is built in a proper factory (not by some guy a shed like some "clones") to HK spec, so there should be no issues.

The thing with some factory mags is that some numpties on HKPro (sic) and Gunbroker are smoking crack with pricing. They either think that used factory mags are either exceedingly rare and no longer available or the Clinton AWB marked mags are "special" or inlaid with either gold or the silly "LE Only" engravings were etched by hand by Bubba Clinton himself and therefore valued at $90+ are a special kind of idiot, and even worse are the guys that buy them from them. The fact is that you can buy new factory mags all day long for $70 retail (at cheezy retail like Cheaper than Dirt, etc.) and much, much cheaper if you know where to look. The POF mags are apparently coming back in stock at RTG some time in the fall, so perfect copies of factory mags for $30, and the MKE metal mags are available from time to time for $40. Also as an FYI, Brownells sells basically all MP5 parts now at reasonable prices too.

The choice between the two calibers shouldn't be based on mag prices. Choose based on your needs.

[KalashniKEV]

More like, should I buy a BMW touring bike or a Harley?

A much better analogy would be a convertible or a motorcycle.

They're worlds apart.

You better call Zenith and tell them that they're wrong about the product that they're importing. And Tim at MAC while you're at it.

That's interesting, because I was told they were not pinned, but I guess they are...

Based on recent imports from other manufacturers though, it would not seem to be a requirement. I wonder what's going on there.

It's my understanding that the stocks are slightly different between the MP5 and HK33/53/93 and that using an MP5 stock in an HK33/53/93 can damage the stock.

Unbuffered '93 carrier with just a cap on the end would be bad for the gun, specifically the takedown pin.

Almost all the '93 types you come across today will be using the buffered carrier though.

'93 stocks will have a disk in the back, MP5 stocks will have the H buffer. If you run an MP5 stock on a 93, you will mess up the H where the buffer hits it.

That's really the only issue that I've seen. Reliability is still 100%

[interfan]

Unbuffered '93 carrier with just a cap on the end would be bad for the gun, specifically the takedown pin.

Almost all the '93 types you come across today will be using the buffered carrier though.

'93 stocks will have a disk in the back, MP5 stocks will have the H buffer. If you run an MP5 stock on a 93, you will mess up the H where the buffer hits it.

That's really the only issue that I've seen. Reliability is still 100%

The Zenith/MKE guys at SHOT Show told me that the carrier was buffered. Outside of SHOT, I haven't seen a Z-43 yet, so I don't know what (if anything) was changed for sales from what they displayed at SHOT. The comp wasn't pinned at SHOT, (they showed a comp, not the more modern MKE four prong flash hider) so if they are pinning them now, that is one change from then.

The last (probably 1980-90's design since HK didn't do much with the 33/53/93 since demand dropped after that) collapsible stock HK did for the 93 also had a buffer and was designed for use with a buffered carrier. The buffer in that stock looks like a standard G3 buffer. You're spot on with the MP5 stock on a 93. The H buffer in the MP5 stock is an easily replaced $7 part, so damage to it and regular replacement as just maintenance is academic if someone wanted to do it.

[MountainRaven]

Thanks guys.

I think I'm going to prioritize compactness, so that means one of the 9 mils. Now to pick between the Wrangler (Z-5 RS "MP5") and the Mustang GT500 convertible (Z-5 P "MP5K-PDW").

[interfan]

Thanks guys.

I think I'm going to prioritize compactness, so that means one of the 9 mils. Now to pick between the Wrangler (Z-5 RS "MP5") and the Mustang GT500 convertible (Z-5 P "MP5K-PDW").

Regardless of which one you buy first, you will probably end up with both down the road. MP5s tend to multiply.

[MountainRaven]

Yeah... I'm bouncing back and forth between light (Z-5 RS) and no light but smaller (Z-5 P - and for what I want to use it for, do I really need a light?).

[interfan]

Yeah... I'm bouncing back and forth between light (Z-5 RS) and no light but smaller (Z-5 P - and for what I want to use it for, do I really need a light?).

You can put a light on a K model pretty easily. There are several ways to do it (this also applies to the full size, too. For the regular MP5, the Surefire handguard with the light at 6 o'clock is pretty much the standard):

1. The easy route is a Surefire rail, which then gives you three mounting rails and replaces the front handguard. This can still be purchased out there as Surefire still makes them. The other solutions are older and you have to look for used or NOS.
2. Streamlight used to make a small mount that replaces the front handguard retaining pin with a screw and an aluminum light rail as a backer. This was discontinued some time ago, but they come up from time to time. I have this on my K with an X200. I have thrown out the packaging, so I don't know what the original part number was for a search.
3. Surefire also used to make an offset light for the K. This also mounted to the cocking tube and had a pressure switch that you can velcro or tape to the pistol grip or handguards.
4. Surefire M21 http://www.ebay.com/itm/121727644972 Google search found it. There was also a flashlight mount from Pelican that mounted to the front sight post.
5. There is another solution from Bruegger & Thomet I have seen, but it is pretty pricey. HK Parts has it on this page, along with their rails (and the Surefire, but it is cheaper elsewhere) that they made to fit lights (Keymod and MLOK): http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/MP5K-...earms-c138.htm
6. Drill a couple of holes in the original HK handguard and mount a rail with some blind fasteners (T-nuts, etc. with red loctite) and some tape on the back to keep them from scratching the barrel. This is the $10 solution and doesn't really have any downside. It will keep a light mounted firmly and new handguards for the K should you go back to original are only $40 for German ones.

Something to keep in mind with MP5 (and MP5 K) is that they have been widely adopted, used for a long time, and still in use in many places by MIL/LE. If you need to do something with it, like mount a light, likely there is a solution (or "was" in some cases). Most of these solutions work well for right handed use, since the cocking handle is on the left hand side. For lefties, the mounts that mount to the cocking tube probably give better ergos along with a tapeswitch.

The only MP5 that is tougher to deal with for mounting a light is the MP5SD, but two hose clamps and a RIS lower section work fine