500 yard group - how am I doing? update post #46 - 0.5 MOA at 560 yards.

**glocktogo** · 12-17-15, 10:19

Originally Posted by Hootiewho

It is very hard to determine what if anything you need to do to shrink that down with only 5 shots.

I'll be straight up, for 98% of the population that is excellent shooting at 500 yards. If you are looking to get into shooting things like the PRS, you will probably want to shrink it down a bit. Reason being, once you get past 650-800 yards with a .308 at your elevation, your enviromentals and physics will begin to take their toll on your shots. I know you are a big boy and can handle criticism, so I'll come out and say it; if that were my rifle I would like it a little bit tighter.

I would not be surprised if that one little guy off by himself was just a bit of a trigger snatch. If it had been in with the other shots, I would say you are exactly where you want to be.

This is about average of what I do with my AI and 175 gr FGMM at 100 yards, prone with Atlas and rear bag.

This is the same rifle with the 260 Rem barrel installed shooting hand loads at 1k at a FTR type match in GA. Now this is the tightest group I have shot at that distance to date, and it was during sight in, before the match started shooting prone with Atlas and TAB gear rear bag, hence only 3 shots. FWIW, I loaded this ammo using a Frankfort Arsenal pocket scale. I do have an Oehler 35P and the SD on this load using 140 gr AMAX and H4350 is around 6 FPS.

If I am starting with a new rifle, I like to see what it will do with and without whatever muzzle device I might be running. I have had brakes cause me grief before, so that is something I always check first. I also like to really slow down when evaluating a load. I would probably dry fire 3-5 times prior to each of those shots. Build up my position and settle in, then dry fire a few times, load a round, break shot, follow through, then break position if I was tired and start over. I know ammo is costly, but I also suggest at least a 10 shot group when doing an eval to really get an idea of what the load is doing.

I would also suggest picking up some known quality loaded ammo to evaluate along side my reloads. Something like the Applied Ballistics .308, FGMM, or Copper Creek.

A chrono is nice to have, but not necessary. If you are just starting out or a year or so into it, I dare say spend that $300+ on ammo or training. You are down near one of the best precision rifle instructors in the US, Derrick Bartlett. I would spend that $ with him and worry about a chrono later. Honestly, one of the things that helped my reloading the most was watching the old 80's era training video of David Tubb doing precision reloading. In that training video he emphasizes several times that charge weight differences are not near as detrimental to grouping as other factors. He demonstrates this at the range. I am not saying you can be all over the place with your measurements and expect laser beam precision; but I did load that ammo in the 1000 yard picture above when I did not own a chrono, and FWIW I placed 1st that day with my scored shots.

If you do decide you would like to buy a chrono, I would strongly suggest either getting a magnetospeed, Oehler, or maybe one of the Labradar units if they shake out to work well. If MS had the mounting options available when I bought my Oehler 35P, I would have just bought the MS. That said, the 35P is the gold standard. The best place to catch a deal on any of those is of course Snipershide's EE. Lots of guys moving from Oehlers to MS or Labradar, so at times you can find a deal on an Oehler.

I would also suggest picking up some Applied Ballistics loaded ammo with the Berger 185 gr Jugg bullet. I love that bullet in my .308. One of the best bullets you can get for the .308 IMHO. Lots of guys on the hide have had great luck with that bullet and PP 2000MR powder, getting insanely high velocities without the normal pressure signs you would see with other powders.

Keep us posted on your progress!

That or an off power round (since it was a straight down drop). The rest are clustered pretty tightly. That's why I like to shoot 10 and disregard two of them. It gives a better representation of what the gun and load can do.

I'd also play with a couple of variables on the load. Get your hands on some Lapua brass and see what happens. If you have a large supply of same lot BHA brass, try primer pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring and neck turning (if you aren't already). After processing, weigh your cases and group them by that. Get a concentricity gauge and group loaded ammo by runout. Use the least consistent lots at the closest range and the more uniform stuff at longer ranges.

You're already doing great, but it takes the little details to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of your gear.

**Pappabear** · 12-20-15, 20:46

So much good info in this thread already. I'll re-emphasize a couple points. I have a friend that while working up loads, he looks at SD and chrono consistency MORE than group size. No human error can play into chrono, but group size always does. Get that green machine charge master or other to improve your reloads. And group size will shrink.

Your group is legit shooting and respectable tactical work.

**wilson1911** · 12-21-15, 14:10

So what has Euro done since posting this thread ? Lots of good info on here for him to learn for precision loading.

**Eurodriver** · 12-21-15, 14:58

Originally Posted by wilson1911

So what has Euro done since posting this thread ? Lots of good info on here for him to learn for precision loading.

Discovered Night Vision

bought a chrono and a better scale...

Lots of good info indeed, but other than thanking everyone for their contributions I won't be able to comment on much until I get behind the gun. Maybe next week.

**taliv** · 12-21-15, 20:05

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

Discovered Night Vision

oh, NOW we're talkin'

if you are into long range in the dark and anywhere near middle TN, let me know. If you are still shopping, I may be able to help out there a bit too.

**Eurodriver** · 12-22-15, 05:59

Absolutely. I will be going out tonight and shooting from 50-200 yards with my ARs if I have time.

I only have a set of PVS14s and use IR lasers so magnification (and laser size) becomes an issue beyond 200. I'd love to get a good NV scope for this rifle (max range I'd use it at would be 600 yards) but would like to try some out first to see what works and what doesn't. Plus I'll also need a powerful IR illuminator to reach out and light the area up. Mounting all that to a bolt gun would be tricky and so very expensive.

**Hootiewho** · 12-23-15, 08:05

There have been 1 or 2 SIMRADs on the Snipershide EE for a while for around $2700. I have no experience with that unit, but have contacted several users on that board and they all give it a great review image wise. The downside being it is big and has a different zeroing process that other units. That said, $2700 is a lot less than the typical $7000+ you will pay for a Clip on.

I would love to have a PVS-27 myself.

**Eurodriver** · 02-13-16, 10:41

I made it out to the range. An injury has kept me away from too long, but I was able to hobble over and do some shooting.

The good news - my loads vertical dispersion is excellent at 600 yards. I think a combination of re-weighing every single charge and getting a more stable shooting platform (camel toe bag and atlas bipod) all helped.

More good news - I have really found a load this rifle likes. BHA brass, 43.0gr IMR4064 and 175gr SMK loaded to 2.815" is money.

Bad news - it was windy as hell today. Wind was coming in at 10:00 and it was a constant 10mph with gusts up to 25mph. The wind was so bad the target stand was wobbling down range.

I'm glad I've got the vertical spread down but I feel like I wasted a trip. I normally enjoy shooting in challenging conditions but the only reason I Went today was because I wanted to get a really nasty 1/2 MOA group at 600 yards and come on here and brag but mother nature dealt me a harsh one

I actually had this rifle up for sale on the EE to finance a semi auto .308 build, but I'm taking it down. I just enjoy it way too much.