Active Shooter Response - Thought Experiment

[glocktogo]

Well, that was just my intent. I'm open to wherever the discussion goes - y'all've put lots of good info out, and in a single thread about the topic. So I appreciate the interaction.

Anytime! It is an interesting subject and though the statistical likelihood is small, the stakes are pretty high.

[G22inSC]

Dennis, you nailed it - original intent was to discuss more along the lines of what you said there: "theoretical high level possibilities", i.e., if we could ground-up construct training that would account for more non-LEO CHP'ers being involved in such incidents, what would the outcome (tactics, procedures, etc.) look like, that sort of thing. Instead, more people want to discuss the "here's how things work now now, so this is how should you respond in this situation".

The reason we are saying this is how you should respond in this situation is because that is where the training is currently at with the idea in mind of helping you stay alive. You can what-if anything to death. Having more training with other "good guy/bad guy" individuals is great. Would that evolve into new ideas, most certainly? Would most of us discuss that openly on a internet forum, doubtful? More training is always better but the problem is monetary constraints (instructors, students, role players and all other individual's overtime), time constraints (shift coverage, active case loads, court appearances, etc.) and on and on. You can not possibly train for every possible scenario. You train the best you can, as often as you can and do your best to make the best decisions. When that time comes be it an active shooter, officer involved shooting, pursuit, warrant service, etc. you make that split decision that right or wrong can not be taken back. That is the reason for the "qualified immunity" mentioned earlier. You can monday morning quarterback anything to death but statutes and case law evolved because the officer on scene, in the heat of the moment does not have that ability. LE has the duty to serve and protect where as CWP holders do not.

As a whole, LE runs to the sound of gun shots while others run away. There is a different mindset and you push past the fear because you have a job to do. Bottom line, if you find yourself in a active shooter situation, I would advise you (and off-duty LEOs) to get yourself and your loved ones out of the area as quickly as possible unless there is no avenue of escape. You may be properly trained and have the mindset but you do NOT have the body armor, long guns and ammo to get into a possible gun battle with armored, multiple suspects. I'm just sayin'.

[T2C]

This issue needs to be discussed.

Two close friends are retired military and they both have grandchildren attending schools in the area. There is no doubt in my mind that if a terrorist or some whack job is shooting up a school, they are going to wade in. The real possibility is that they may be shot by responding LEO or another concealed carry holder. Both of them are of the mindset that they decided they were willing to take that kind of risk over 40 years ago.

If you involve yourself in a critical incident, accept the fact that you will not come out of it unscathed.

[silvery37]

To add some perspective these are things I have seen in uof scenarios regarding active shooters:

Uniformed officer shoots another uniformed officer. Shooter (officer) saw a gun and never looked past that.

Different scenario. The actor in the scenario was a plain clothes officer with a badge worn on a chain. He was holding a gun on the suspect and yelling out that he was an officer. He was shot when officers entered the room. Officer never heard him yelling anything. This happened several times. Officers that entered the room thought he was going to shoot the suspect he was actually holding.

This is just two examples but they arent unusual. Responding to an active shooter produces an enormous amount of stress. The responding officers are not able to process a lot more information than: guy with a gun = shooter.

My humble suggestion is give yourself 30 seconds to a minute to engage if you choose to do so and DO NOT have a gun visible when officers see you.

[twadsw01]

Are you saying, if you're a civilian, to give yourself 30sec of assessing the situation before you make a shoot/no-shoot decision when you see someone with a gun?

My humble suggestion is give yourself 30 seconds to a minute to engage if you choose to do so and DO NOT have a gun visible when officers see you.

[silvery37]

Are you saying, if you're a civilian, to give yourself 30sec of assessing the situation before you make a shoot/no-shoot decision when you see someone with a gun?

No. I'm saying if it takes longer than that time to find and stop an active shooter you start running the risk of confronting responding officers.

If you're in a store or church or wherever and you see someone shooting absolutely stop that guy. The idea of chasing down someone in a mall or large area has a lot of risk involved.

[jjackson@tierthreetac]

There's a lot of great info on the site. I can say as a police officer and former Infantry Officer in the Marine corps that target discrimination is very difficult under these types of situations. If you have a gun out you are at a higher risk of being shot. That being said police officer are very good at reading body language. It is very easy to tell someone apart who is intent on harm and someone who is confused but holding a gun. This type of info is impossible to capture in a forum but easy to gather in a snapshot. I wrote an article covering this very topic with my recommendations on what to do if you happen to find yourself in this scenario. Let me now what you think. http://www.tierthreetactical.com/ana...n-isis-attack/

[26 Inf]

I found the article to be informative and well written.

I don't fully agree with this part of your post, though - That being said police officer are very good at reading body language.

I'd change it to MOST police officers are adept at reading body language in LOWER STRESS situations. In high stress situations a less experienced/inoculated officer will often focus on larger elements and miss subtle cues.

[jjackson@tierthreetac]

I found the article to be informative and well written.

I don't fully agree with this part of your post, though - That being said police officer are very good at reading body language.

I'd change it to MOST police officers are adept at reading body language in LOWER STRESS situations. In high stress situations a less experienced/inoculated officer will often focus on larger elements and miss subtle cues.

I think you are probably right. I have certainly seen some clueless guy/gals out there. Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you liked it.

[JC5188]

I'm not an LEO, but I'll chime in...

I'm not going to seek out an engagement, period. Unless the thing pops off right in front of me, I'm GTFO. Just not enough context in a very dynamic situation to do otherwise.






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