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Thread: Isreali 'Fight from the door' method

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe R. View Post
    Just a reminder guys, this is an open source forum and TTPs should be discussed sparingly if at all.
    This is absolutely worth repeating. We have an LEO forum for a lot of discussions like this.

    Honest question for the OP and everyone else - should this thread vanish?

    Not picking on the OP in any way with that question, by the way..

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousStudent View Post
    This is absolutely worth repeating. We have an LEO forum for a lot of discussions like this.

    Honest question for the OP and everyone else - should this thread vanish?

    Not picking on the OP in any way with that question, by the way..
    What's been said so far is easily within the realm of open source from youtube videos.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousStudent View Post
    This is absolutely worth repeating. We have an LEO forum for a lot of discussions like this.

    Honest question for the OP and everyone else - should this thread vanish?

    Not picking on the OP in any way with that question, by the way..
    I am in know way trying to dive into current unit TTP's. The forum was titled Training & Tactics. Nothing I disclosed regarding my previous units SOP's are secret. If the information I did mention is considered too sensitive for the site, please delete it.

    As for the LEO forum, I have sent message to the staff and searched FAQ regarding entry into it. What information is needed? Thanks for the help.
    ABOVE THE REST_____________________CURRAHEE
    1/327th INF 101st ABN_______________1/506th INF, 101st ABN
    OIF 1 2003/2004._____________________OIF 3 2005/2006


  4. #14
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    Info is in the Site Questions forum. Here's a link to the info:
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ted-10-11-12**

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TF82 View Post
    Info is in the Site Questions forum. Here's a link to the info:
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ted-10-11-12**
    Thanks!
    ABOVE THE REST_____________________CURRAHEE
    1/327th INF 101st ABN_______________1/506th INF, 101st ABN
    OIF 1 2003/2004._____________________OIF 3 2005/2006


  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamadiDoorkicker View Post
    I am in know way trying to dive into current unit TTP's. The forum was titled Training & Tactics. Nothing I disclosed regarding my previous units SOP's are secret. If the information I did mention is considered too sensitive for the site, please delete it.

    As for the LEO forum, I have sent message to the staff and searched FAQ regarding entry into it. What information is needed? Thanks for the help.
    Good afternoon,

    My point was that it always seems to be a juggling act. I was in the military so long ago, it was swordsmanship that was classified.

    If you would like admission to the LEO subforum, please send a PM to the staff member named SWATCop556. He'll get you hooked up.

    And thank you for your service.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Here's my take - we've been teaching this method - 'fight from the hall' 'pin and slice' or whatever you want to call it - for a long time - the first time we really understood it wasn't the way everyone did it was right after Columbine when me and my partner attended one of the first NTOA active shooter courses.

    There are times and places for the method - from my perspective it is really a good way to roll, in most cases, for a solo officer/soldier/hunter that is moving.

    Some of the biggest disadvantages, once again from my perspective are:

    1) you spend a little too much time hanging around the door before getting your weapon into play - dependent on the noise level it is very difficult to approach an open breach point - such as a classroom doorway - without being detected - if there is gunfire in the room or screaming victims (as is most often the case in the training environment) or a loud radio or TV, you may get to the door undetected, but otherwise it is a crap shoot;

    Perhaps I'm off base, but anyone who is barricaded with hostages is well aware that LE is on their way. I don't think a stealth approach is easily achieved with any number of well equipped officers(or soldiers) moving to the target. With a lot of background noise as you mention then perhaps. Another issue I see or say scenario is being detected by some scumbag(via the open doorway) before you are in a position to make entry. If the shooting starts a this point are you still going to enter the room via the fatal funnel?

    2) if is more than one bad guy in the room and they are at all separated, in an active shooter situation you give bad guy number two a great deal of time to hose more innocents in the room;

    Not trying to be callous here but the goal is to minimize casualties by stopping the threat. There will always be casualties, and getting the team shot or a killed helps no one. This brings me back to the scenario from above, are you still going to make entry if you've been made and are not engaged in a protracted gunfight?

    3) if working with another person you have to be very aware and disciplined regarding sectors of fire if your buddy slices completely across the doorway;

    A good point, I see that as a training issue. You muzzle should never cover anything you don't wish to destroy, however that shouldn't be much of an issue as you should be making the conscious decision to fire and executing trigger finger discipline.


    4) the technique also doesn't much consider a trained adversary and relies on the concealment provided by non-bullet resistant materials. Consider any non-concrete/brick/stone exterior wall, how much ballistic protection does it provide? Not much. Get on the interior of the building and it is even worse - sheetrock and studs. That corner you are slicing around - concealment only. Earlier on I noted a trained adversary - what works in a Third World Country against an untrained, non-tactical think population, will not work as well in a more educated population with a sprinkling of well-trained veterans scattered through out. Case(s) in point - I train police officers. Starting about a decade-decade and a half ago I began reading a lot more incidents in which guys at DV's, being arrested on a warrant at a residence, etc. were tagging officers by shooting through doors and walls adjacent to the doors. This speaks to a degree of tactical acumen that comes from somewhere - more modern MOUT training techniques, the internet, magazines, etc.

    A very good point. If the adversary(I prefer scumbag as it's a more fitting title) has even a little forethought or training then stacking outside the door is no less risky than slicing from the doorway(not in the doorway). Again, if the scumbag(s) in question is prepared for an entry, does it make sense to enter a room you have little to no knowledge of as far as layout, barricades, location of innocents and scumbags? At the very least the walls be they brick or sheetrock still offer concealment whereas entering the room of unknowns(via the fatal funnel) offers nothing.

    Bottom line is under any circumstances hunting down and confronting folks in a building is risky business. Just like most military operations, the advantage most often is to an alert defender.

    For active shooter situations with two officer teams we teach pin, roll until you have enough information to enter, then follow your rounds into the room.

    'It's not THE way, it's just A way.'
    In the bold, just some thoughts.

    Here are some videos of the limited entry method.

    Two man entry
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdU4wCUwDeQ

    Four man entry
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X5misiXuNs

    Active shooter discussion
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-vy4m6H2ng

    Entry method explained(a bit long but interesting)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNv5QxUft7c

    And a very interesting real world example of dynamic entry becoming limited penetration.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIpA1tDwP5I



    MM
    Last edited by Mysteryman; 02-08-16 at 22:21.

  8. #18
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    I've seen this discussion pop up on a few forums recently and I'll briefly surmise (minus the ignorant input from the window lickers):

    -For LE & mil purposes it can work provided that the officer/team is prepared to enter the area at any time.
    -You are not fighting from a door without full length shields. Walls are not cover.
    -Just because it worked out with Sims doesn't mean it will with live rounds
    -Visually softening an area before entering has always been an option and always been in use dependent on METT-TC (for lack of a better term)
    -Fighting from a doorway IS NOT utilized by any US SOF unit (75th, SF, CAG, NSW) and definately not authorized to be taught at any US Mil Urban Warfare School (SFAUIC or SQT), nor is it taught or advocated by DoS, FLETC. (Confirmed by calls to the schoolhouses)
    -Yes, some former SOF guys are advocating it and teaching it independently....they probably do crossfit too.

  9. #19
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    It is very easy to lump very different approaches to enclosure clearing into a category based off a single aspect of the entry.
    An open discussion board is one of the worst possible ways to discuss the topic, as it is hard to fully communicate team-tactics to someone that isn't on the same page with regard to terminology, tactics, or communication, and add to that the necessary avoidance of sharing TTPs with everybody with google.
    There are highly credible and experienced folks on both sides of this coin, and most would agree that there is a time and place for all manner of things that most folks simply do not fully comprehend.
    Remember, there is a long lasting argument about low ready vs high port in the industry, and that's a pretty simply aspect.
    Jack Leuba
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    It is very easy to lump very different approaches to enclosure clearing into a category based off a single aspect of the entry.
    An open discussion board is one of the worst possible ways to discuss the topic, as it is hard to fully communicate team-tactics to someone that isn't on the same page with regard to terminology, tactics, or communication, and add to that the necessary avoidance of sharing TTPs with everybody with google.
    There are highly credible and experienced folks on both sides of this coin, and most would agree that there is a time and place for all manner of things that most folks simply do not fully comprehend.
    Remember, there is a long lasting argument about low ready vs high port in the industry, and that's a pretty simply aspect.
    Perhaps the thread should change into a discussion of basic principles that apply/do not apply as well as the reasons why & how they were tested?

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