Isreali 'Fight from the door' method

[RamadiDoorkicker]

I have heard mention the Isreali 'Fight from the door' method for Urban operations but have not been able to find anything online that explains it in more depth. Any suggestions or experience with this?

[Turnkey11]

Havent heard of it but from the way its worded it seems like they dont believe in fatal funnels.

[ggammell]

you can clear a significant portion of a room by pie-ing the door leaving only the close corners unswept. The brass falls in the hall.

[26 Inf]

Here's my take - we've been teaching this method - 'fight from the hall' 'pin and slice' or whatever you want to call it - for a long time - the first time we really understood it wasn't the way everyone did it was right after Columbine when me and my partner attended one of the first NTOA active shooter courses.

There are times and places for the method - from my perspective it is really a good way to roll, in most cases, for a solo officer/soldier/hunter that is moving.

Some of the biggest disadvantages, once again from my perspective are:

1) you spend a little too much time hanging around the door before getting your weapon into play - dependent on the noise level it is very difficult to approach an open breach point - such as a classroom doorway - without being detected - if there is gunfire in the room or screaming victims (as is most often the case in the training environment) or a loud radio or TV, you may get to the door undetected, but otherwise it is a crap shoot;

2) if is more than one bad guy in the room and they are at all separated, in an active shooter situation you give bad guy number two a great deal of time to hose more innocents in the room;

3) if working with another person you have to be very aware and disciplined regarding sectors of fire if your buddy slices completely across the doorway;

4) the technique also doesn't much consider a trained adversary and relies on the concealment provided by non-bullet resistant materials. Consider any non-concrete/brick/stone exterior wall, how much ballistic protection does it provide? Not much. Get on the interior of the building and it is even worse - sheetrock and studs. That corner you are slicing around - concealment only. Earlier on I noted a trained adversary - what works in a Third World Country against an untrained, non-tactical think population, will not work as well in a more educated population with a sprinkling of well-trained veterans scattered through out. Case(s) in point - I train police officers. Starting about a decade-decade and a half ago I began reading a lot more incidents in which guys at DV's, being arrested on a warrant at a residence, etc. were tagging officers by shooting through doors and walls adjacent to the doors. This speaks to a degree of tactical acumen that comes from somewhere - more modern MOUT training techniques, the internet, magazines, etc.

Bottom line is under any circumstances hunting down and confronting folks in a building is risky business. Just like most military operations, the advantage most often is to an alert defender.

For active shooter situations with two officer teams we teach pin, roll until you have enough information to enter, then follow your rounds into the room.

'It's not THE way, it's just A way.'

[RamadiDoorkicker]

Here's my take - we've been teaching this method - 'fight from the hall' 'pin and slice' or whatever you want to call it - for a long time - the first time we really understood it wasn't the way everyone did it was right after Columbine when me and my partner attended one of the first NTOA active shooter courses..... .'

Thanks for the answer. I would agree that this could be advantageous to a lone officer or soldier but that seems to be the exception.

There is no safe way to make entry to a building, especially in the civilian world. (It was a little easier in Iraq when we could make an alternative entry via wall breach.) However, slowly presenting yourself as your work your way through the pie is asking to get shot. You are hoping to identify where a shooter is hiding in a room full of items for him to hide behind and engage him before he engages you. Not smart. Especially, when you have spent several hours clearing rooms and are completely exhausted. Your rifle is not going to be as ready, you brain is going to be on autopilot, and you are going to get sloppy.

Is this tactic common in more places that just Israel?

[Mysteryman]

Here's my take - we've been teaching this method - 'fight from the hall' 'pin and slice' or whatever you want to call it - for a long time - the first time we really understood it wasn't the way everyone did it was right after Columbine when me and my partner attended one of the first NTOA active shooter courses.

There are times and places for the method - from my perspective it is really a good way to roll, in most cases, for a solo officer/soldier/hunter that is moving.

Some of the biggest disadvantages, once again from my perspective are:

1) you spend a little too much time hanging around the door before getting your weapon into play - dependent on the noise level it is very difficult to approach an open breach point - such as a classroom doorway - without being detected - if there is gunfire in the room or screaming victims (as is most often the case in the training environment) or a loud radio or TV, you may get to the door undetected, but otherwise it is a crap shoot;

Perhaps I'm off base, but anyone who is barricaded with hostages is well aware that LE is on their way. I don't think a stealth approach is easily achieved with any number of well equipped officers(or soldiers) moving to the target. With a lot of background noise as you mention then perhaps. Another issue I see or say scenario is being detected by some scumbag(via the open doorway) before you are in a position to make entry. If the shooting starts a this point are you still going to enter the room via the fatal funnel?

2) if is more than one bad guy in the room and they are at all separated, in an active shooter situation you give bad guy number two a great deal of time to hose more innocents in the room;

Not trying to be callous here but the goal is to minimize casualties by stopping the threat. There will always be casualties, and getting the team shot or a killed helps no one. This brings me back to the scenario from above, are you still going to make entry if you've been made and are not engaged in a protracted gunfight?

3) if working with another person you have to be very aware and disciplined regarding sectors of fire if your buddy slices completely across the doorway;

A good point, I see that as a training issue. You muzzle should never cover anything you don't wish to destroy, however that shouldn't be much of an issue as you should be making the conscious decision to fire and executing trigger finger discipline.

4) the technique also doesn't much consider a trained adversary and relies on the concealment provided by non-bullet resistant materials. Consider any non-concrete/brick/stone exterior wall, how much ballistic protection does it provide? Not much. Get on the interior of the building and it is even worse - sheetrock and studs. That corner you are slicing around - concealment only. Earlier on I noted a trained adversary - what works in a Third World Country against an untrained, non-tactical think population, will not work as well in a more educated population with a sprinkling of well-trained veterans scattered through out. Case(s) in point - I train police officers. Starting about a decade-decade and a half ago I began reading a lot more incidents in which guys at DV's, being arrested on a warrant at a residence, etc. were tagging officers by shooting through doors and walls adjacent to the doors. This speaks to a degree of tactical acumen that comes from somewhere - more modern MOUT training techniques, the internet, magazines, etc.

A very good point. If the adversary(I prefer scumbag as it's a more fitting title) has even a little forethought or training then stacking outside the door is no less risky than slicing from the doorway(not in the doorway). Again, if the scumbag(s) in question is prepared for an entry, does it make sense to enter a room you have little to no knowledge of as far as layout, barricades, location of innocents and scumbags? At the very least the walls be they brick or sheetrock still offer concealment whereas entering the room of unknowns(via the fatal funnel) offers nothing.

Bottom line is under any circumstances hunting down and confronting folks in a building is risky business. Just like most military operations, the advantage most often is to an alert defender.

For active shooter situations with two officer teams we teach pin, roll until you have enough information to enter, then follow your rounds into the room.

'It's not THE way, it's just A way.'

In the bold, just some thoughts.

Here are some videos of the limited entry method.

Two man entry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdU4wCUwDeQ

Four man entry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X5misiXuNs

Active shooter discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-vy4m6H2ng

Entry method explained(a bit long but interesting)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNv5QxUft7c

And a very interesting real world example of dynamic entry becoming limited penetration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIpA1tDwP5I



MM

[275RLTW]

I've seen this discussion pop up on a few forums recently and I'll briefly surmise (minus the ignorant input from the window lickers):

-For LE & mil purposes it can work provided that the officer/team is prepared to enter the area at any time.
-You are not fighting from a door without full length shields. Walls are not cover.
-Just because it worked out with Sims doesn't mean it will with live rounds
-Visually softening an area before entering has always been an option and always been in use dependent on METT-TC (for lack of a better term)
-Fighting from a doorway IS NOT utilized by any US SOF unit (75th, SF, CAG, NSW) and definately not authorized to be taught at any US Mil Urban Warfare School (SFAUIC or SQT), nor is it taught or advocated by DoS, FLETC. (Confirmed by calls to the schoolhouses)
-Yes, some former SOF guys are advocating it and teaching it independently....they probably do crossfit too.

[RamadiDoorkicker]

you can clear a significant portion of a room by pie-ing the door leaving only the close corners unswept. The brass falls in the hall.

Sounds like a good way to bog down the flow of the entry. If I am stopping to Pie a door in a typical residential hallway the rest of my team isn't going to be able to move around me freely. Not to mention Violence of Action. With exception of IED's, every casualty I took during the clearing of a structure was AFTER we lost the violence of action. They knew we were there and had time to set up in ambush.

[ggammell]

Sounds like a good way to bog down the flow of the entry. If I am stopping to Pie a door in a typical residential hallway the rest of my team isn't going to be able to move around me freely. Not to mention Violence of Action. With exception of IED's, every casualty I took during the clearing of a structure was AFTER we lost the violence of action. They knew we were there and had time to set up in ambush.

It's about taking out what ever threat you can before you make entry. I approach from an LE perspective. We can't always go blowing through a house. You no doubt spent more timeframe MOUT before each deployment than I and many like me can hope to do in our career.

It takes tactics most line officers know (slicing the pie) and makes and makes it work in a tactical scenario. It gives them time and space and easier access to an exit if needed than crashing into a room without knowing what's in there. Yeah dry wall may not stop a bullet. Check. We agree. But I'd rather have it between me and the bad guy than doing a dynamic room entry and realize that I'm up against something worse than I thought with nothing between me and the threat. I beleive that the Mark Owen books state that Dev has moved from the crash bang dynamic model to the slow and methodical clearing structures.

[RamadiDoorkicker]

It's about taking out what ever threat you can before you make entry. I approach from an LE perspective. We can't always go blowing through a house. You no doubt spent more timeframe MOUT before each deployment than I and many like me can hope to do in our career.

It takes tactics most line officers know (slicing the pie) and makes and makes it work in a tactical scenario. It gives them time and space and easier access to an exit if needed than crashing into a room without knowing what's in there. Yeah dry wall may not stop a bullet. Check. We agree. But I'd rather have it between me and the bad guy than doing a dynamic room entry and realize that I'm up against something worse than I thought with nothing between me and the threat. I beleive that the Mark Owen books state that Dev has moved from the crash bang dynamic model to the slow and methodical clearing structures.

Very good point.