Isreali 'Fight from the door' method

[26 Inf]

[QUOTE=RamadiDoorkicker;2298058]

-Fighting from a doorway IS NOT utilized by any US SOF unit (75th, SF, CAG, NSW) and definately not authorized to be taught at any US Mil Urban Warfare School (SFAUIC or SQT), nor is it taught or advocated by DoS, FLETC. (Confirmed by calls to the schoolhouses)
-Yes, some former SOF guys are advocating it and teaching it independently....they probably do crossfit too.[/QUOTE

ROFL! Now that was funny.

But, but, Israeli.......

[HKGuns]

While there are no universal constants, it seems to defy the concept of speed and violence of action. I'm not an LE but can see where it might be more useful in LE than in the .MIL.

Like low ready vs. high port, kind of situational dependent and may vary, depending on your experience and/or where you work.

I'd think it would be more useful, than not, to have more tools in your bag, to draw upon if needed.

ETA: I just watched the second video. He makes several statements in the beginning that are not how things are done. He also appears to ignore some basic concepts. I won't go into the details because of the sensitivity further up in the thread.

[26 Inf]

I think it is important to have a thorough understanding of principles - his principles differ from the way I see things - for example from about 9:30 to 11:20 on the linked video he is espousing staying against the wall - primary reason the guy doesn't see you as early if he is moving around the room. Then he demos the guy busting out of the room. Got it - but that example is one aspect only and IMO flawed - if I'm out, I see the guy earlier AND can move into concealment as he moves out. If I'm against the wall the only move I have that doesn't actually expose me more is to move back - and that does nothing to make it harder to hit me.

His way only works if we are both peeking around corners gun fighting and depends too much on the non-existent cover of walls and doorways.

JMO

[J8127]

There is a lot of people combining methods here. The hitters are doing this, just not the way you may or may not be envisioning it.

[275RLTW]

There is a lot of people combining methods here. The hitters are doing this, just not the way you may or may not be envisioning it.

Pardon my ignorance on who you are or your experience but can you elaborate on this? Who do you mean by "hitters" and how did you verify this?

[KalashniKEV]

https://youtu.be/r53QZ3GrqAo

LOL!

Did they just shoot the hostage? Or was she even a hostage?

It seemed like after hanging out in the fatal funnel for quite a bit they seemed confident that the bad guy had bounced... or maybe they forgot about him?

But, but, Israeli.......

Exactly- if your enemy is a kid with a slingshot or someone with a kitchen knife, feel free to hang out all day in the door.

In the real world though, against a real threat with the means to fight back?

Sounds like "Die in the Door" might be a more appropriate appellation...

[KalashniKEV]

Pardon my ignorance on who you are or your experience but can you elaborate on this? Who do you mean by "hitters" and how did you verify this?

I think he means crackheads...

[Fatal Front]

To reply to the original question, I had the opportunity to attend the IDF's Counter Terrorism Course in 2004 at Camp Mikin Adam just outside Tel Aviv.

What your referring to is the hallway pass by fire drill. Due to building materials in that part of the world being more masonry and cement type you can use the edge of a door as cover vs. the U.S. where we build with wood and dry wall and won't stop a pellet gun. The idea is to engage from the edge of the door and never penetrate the room in case of suicide vest or explosive inside. If another group is passing behind you aimed for the next door down the hall the team at the first door would provide a volume of fire through spraying the room.

I'm sure certain people are shaking their heads, but you have to remember they have their own laws and rules of engagement which are extremely effect considering the enemy they are dealing with. When we engaged them for the first time with sim rounds they completely ate our lunch however in an overland company and battalion assault we kreemed them. Their military culture has turned urban operations into a science while letting other aspects of warfare degrade as they rarely employee it. Small units tactics at the company minus to platoon level is their bread and butter. After 2 weeks of working close with them 18 hours a day we were about 90 percent as good and found U.S. ROE put us at larger risk and inhibited operations. We started adapting their ROE and found it was easy to get the job done.

When we got back to CONUS the 1stSgt told us now that the games were over with and that we would never use those tactics it's time to get some real training time in and we started a class on sexual assault followed by transsexual awareness classes. I guess training is a matter of perspective.

If you would like more on this topic please email at Robar90@yahoo.com as I took copious notes and wrote a 30 page book on everything I saw.

[26 Inf]

To reply to the original question, I had the opportunity to attend the IDF's Counter Terrorism Course in 2004 at Camp Mikin Adam just outside Tel Aviv.

What your referring to is the hallway pass by fire drill. Due to building materials in that part of the world being more masonry and cement type you can use the edge of a door as cover vs. the U.S. where we build with wood and dry wall and won't stop a pellet gun. The idea is to engage from the edge of the door and never penetrate the room in case of suicide vest or explosive inside. If another group is passing behind you aimed for the next door down the hall the team at the first door would provide a volume of fire through spraying the room.

That is one of the problems with trying to blend military tactics into law enforcement and civilian models - doesn't always dovetail. Back in the 90's the MOUT FM/TM (don't know what it is called today) was great if you were fighting in WWII Europe, not so good if you were fighting in modern U.S. construction, unfortunately some tac teams were overly influenced by the .mil methodology.

Unfortunately some folks don't think tactics through.

[Fatal Front]

In regards to my previous post, mil only please for requests for additional material or TTPs.

While I'm not against civ having this info its the "innocent passing along" to a buddy that worries me and it falling into the wrong hands. Certain techniques target LEO or groups of LEO patrolling to include SWAT and TTP's on how to defeat and consume an entry team.

Thank you for understanding.