Realist Airsoft Pistols for Force on Force?

[Tzook]

Hey all, I'm wanting to do some more Force on Force training than my department offers on my own, and I'm curious if anybody on here uses airsoft pistols for this. I have already attempted to borrow my department's sim pistols and rifles for personal practice/training, and it's looking like I won't ever be able to do so. Is there anything reasonably priced yet realistic out there in the airsoft world similar to a Glock 17/22? Or even a Glock 19/23? Thanks in advance for your help.

[HardToHandle]

Hey all, I'm wanting to do some more Force on Force training than my department offers on my own, and I'm curious if anybody on here uses airsoft pistols for this. I have already attempted to borrow my department's sim pistols and rifles for personal practice/training, and it's looking like I won't ever be able to do so. Is there anything reasonably priced yet realistic out there in the airsoft world similar to a Glock 17/22? Or even a Glock 19/23? Thanks in advance for your help.

I have had success with the fancy Japanese Toyko Maruis. They are plastic, but the green gas powered magazines add a realistic heft. Less recoil and report than my real G26 but durable enough for force on force. I believe TM makes G17-19s as well. IIRC I paid $130 for NIB.

I had picked up another green gas gun used for about half that for G19. It had a pot steel slide, but didn't feel as realistic as the plastic slide. It also is a bit oversized and doesn't fit my G19 holsters. The Tokyo Maruis are accurate to size.

[26 Inf]

Hey Tzook - I know a guy who has a civilian training setup through Simunition - he uses it as an adjunct for CCW classes - so civvies can get them, don't know the hoops he had to jump through. If you are in the plains states I could hook you up with him for more info.

[strambo]

You can buy Simunition as an individual officer (Glock conversions are ~$500, ammo is .56ea, full set of protective gear is about $230 and the cheaper airsoft/paintball stuff isn't good enough). That said, I wouldn't recommend it. You are on the right track with airsoft, way less cost and RISK! The most important components to a quality FoF training session are a realistic scenario (should be simple with a few, like 1 or 2, well-defined training objectives), good role players who do exactly what the instructor tells them, and SAFETY.

For safety, wherever you are conducting training that is your "safe zone." Everyone who enters the safe zone gets patted down and all bags searched for any live weapon (including knives) or ammo. This includes any instructors, observers etc. If the bathroom isn't in the safe zone, then you get searched again when you come back. Officers get shot and killed when this isn't enforced, usually the dept. in question doesn't have a certified instructor (Certified in FoF training), they just buy the Simunition and go for it. FoF has very specific safety requirements that a regular firearms instructor wouldn't know about.

If I were doing informal FoF training off duty, I would still absolutely enforce rigid safety protocols (it only takes a minute or two). We can swap out who are RPs, trainer, and trainee, but the pat down/redundant safety checks would happen whether airsoft or sims.

Simunition does have a civilian range program as of a couple years ago. Have to be certified and apply etc. One hurdle is liability insurance, the typical NRA policy doesn't cover FoF. I just went through the Simunition LE/MIL Scenario Instructor course (and it was great!). I went on my .mil credentials, but on my own dime. I'm in the process of figuring out a 1 day training class focusing on close quarter shooting skills with Simunition FoF. Doing it right is expensive...(airsoft waaay less so, I have a couple airsoft guns including a KWA G19 and would stick with that for personal use no doubt.)

Edit: I saw a youtube vid. of a simunition class given to civilians and I was horrified! The trainer and his assistant had zero protective gear on at all and they were in the line of fire. The student and role player did not have the proper gear (like throat protection, no groin pro was visible) and most shockingly it looked like the knife the RP was using was a live M9 bayonet!! Of course all the comments were about how great the training was etc. Someone is going to get killed.

[Tzook]

Thank you all very much for the suggestions. I would really like to get ahold of some sim guns, but it is more than likely not in the cards. It's very cost prohibitive, and it would severely limit where I could use them. With airsoft guns, I could use my whole house or training partners houses, but I think sim guns would probably be a little bit much for that.

[26 Inf]

I just went through the Simunition LE/MIL Scenario Instructor course (and it was great!). I went on my .mil credentials, but on my own dime. I'm in the process of figuring out a 1 day training class focusing on close quarter shooting skills with Simunition FoF. Doing it right is expensive...(airsoft waaay less so, I have a couple airsoft guns including a KWA G19 and would stick with that for personal use no doubt.)

I'd suggest this book for additional study to supplement the good stuff imparted in the Simunitions Course:

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Speed.../dp/0976199408

[strambo]

Great suggestion! I have had that book for about a decade now, bought it on the suggestion of LTC Grossman at one of his talks, it is very good. I wish he came out with the promised Vol 2.

[26 Inf]

Yeah, I wish he would, I've also done his 5 day class in addition to the Simunition course. Someone told me he gets .05 royalty for every Simunition round sold, so he may not need to write another book.

[strambo]

That's a nice royalty! I bet the 5 day class was awesome.