Just finished a BUG class with Ken Hackathorn/ J-frame thoughts.

[Sam]

Any thought given to one of those .22 WMR j-frames? Somebody is making defensive-minded ammo for them and they have better capacity than a .38, plus they're light as hell. Was thinking one would make a good jogging gun.

That gun was discussed. As in any RIMFIRE REVOLVER, they require a stout hammer spring to ignite those pesky cartridges. It's fine for an able body person to pull that DA trigger, but if a frail, weak or elderly person tries to shoot it, they may not have enough hand strength to pull the trigger. This is a catch 22 (pun intended) with light weight rimfire revolvers. While there is no recoil, so it's easy to frail/elderly/weak person to control, but they may or may not be able to pull the trigger. I have a friend who is a physical therapist that is not able to pull the DA trigger on any revolvers (including centerfire revolvers). She is not physically weak or elderly, but she has no hand strength. Another friend is an elderly lady in her mid 60s, I've taught her how to shoot her Smith model 36 and she can pull the trigger just fine. I can't explain it.

The topic of ballistics of minor calibers (.380, .32, .25, .22) was discussed. The short story is, carry the biggest caliber that one can shoot accurately, a gun that one is willing to carry and one must maintain his/her weapon. Neglected .22LR semi auto is a bitch to operate even if the shooter is a well practiced, well skilled and well trained shooter.

[Ron3]

Nice post, OP.

I'm a big fan of the Ruger LCR line over the S&W's. If you haven't checked one out, you should. The trigger is SO much better and the Hogue internal cushion grip and frame design handle the recoil MUCH better. My wife can fire 50 rounds of +p 125 gr .38 specials from her LCR357 (17 oz unloaded, 19 oz loaded) in 20-30 minutes with no pain. For me a small amount of .357 magnum ammo is tolerable. Both of us can shoot the weak .38 loads all day if we like.

But anway, I too, like reloading strips because I'm just not going to carry the round type. Too bulky. I prefer the 8-shot Tuff-Strips. I load two, a space, two more, two spaces, then one more. The longer strip makes it easier to find in the pocket and holds it upright. Makes it easier to use, too.

Buy a bunch and pre-load them. Then do all your reloading with them while shooting to build memory. Also, loading the first four is a lot faster than loading all 5 if time is the essence.

The LCR is every bit as accurate as a Glock 19 at 25 yards. Shots come slower due to the longer trigger, but the gun can do it if you can.

Ditto on the rimfire snubs. They always have very stiff triggers. For low recoil, go with weak .38 specials. Still too much? Go for the .327 magnum and shoot .32 acp from it. (and .32 S&W short, .32 S&W long, .32 magnum, and .327 federal) But all of that is expensive except for the .32 auto. (and they don't extract well sometimes I've read)

I would enjoy such a class on backups myself.

[Little Creek]

I was there and shot this same course with a G43 as my BUG. Since I am a retired LEO, it is actually my primary and only CCW, that is unless I am carrying my G19 (in the winter). I used to carry my J-frame (M340) in a front pocket holster. I now know that 7 (or more) rounds of top shelf 9mm self defense ammo beats 5 rounds of 38 spl. +P every time. I find the G43 infinitely easier to shoot well (fast and accurate) than my old M340. By the way, I make it a point to not go anywhere, that the law allows, unarmed. I throughly enjoyed this course with KH and I enjoyed my fellow classmates as well. High caliber folks, one and all. I can now cross this off my bucket list.

[Sam]

Little Creek,
Who are you? There are two people who are retired LE in the class. First name is adequate. I was the class organizer.

[Little Creek]

Little Creek,
Who are you? There are two people who are retired LE in the class. First name is adequate. I was the class organizer.

Mike M

[Sam]

Hey Mike good to see you here.

It is interesting that the BUG portion of the class really opened some eyes. Some decided to change their BUG gun from a snubby to some kind of small 9mm semi auto. At least one student saw the need to replace his current "express big dot" front sight system to a more conventional night front sight to get better accuracy, at least one was convinced that a Crimson Trace grip is the ticket for his J frame. I think Greg and I confirmed and validated our BUG choice and will continue to drive on with our current set up.

Excellent class and maybe one of the best ever.

[johnnywitt]

I have to agree with the counselor.

J frames and other little revolvers are not easy to shoot. I've shot revolvers since I was a teenager, so I had a little head start on most milleniums and other shooters. It took me a long time to become competent.

Another observation, Greg, myself and another student shot from pocket holsters, which is how we carry most of the time. Since Greg was on opposite end of the firing line from me I didn't get to observe him shooting. But I noticed that every time, I mean every time, my buddy with the J that drew from the pocket, was always the first to get the shot off. Ken allowed us to start with our hand on the gun in the pocket. So he got his shot off first every time, beating guys with Glock 19, Shield, Glock 43 that drew from belt holsters (iwb or owb). The reason we started with our hand already on the gun is that it make sense, when one carry in the pocket we can discretely get a firing grip when we sense danger or potential problem without offending or upsetting other people. If the issue goes away we can easily go on our business and no one will ever know.

That was the first time I shot any J frame in any class (I've shot K frames before). I think the three of us who brought our own J's validated our reasons for carrying them and now have much more confidence in shooting them under stress. Makes me want to get another one, I already have three).

That's what I have always maintained. Speed of getting off the First shot and the fact that ,statistically, as a CCW, you will be engaged at very close and personal ranges & possibly to be involved in a physical struggle shooting one handed and odd positions that that can entail & maybe even having to contact shoot your attacker. For this type of work, the Snubby is unparalled, IMO.
I just keep coming back to the J Frame Snubby. That Single Stack is Sexy and Glamorous and all, but the Snubby is like a good Wife that won't quit you.

[johnnywitt]

Any thought given to one of those .22 WMR j-frames? Somebody is making defensive-minded ammo for them and they have better capacity than a .38, plus they're light as hell. Was thinking one would make a good jogging gun.

The deal with the .22WMR is ballistically it's like the .357 Mag out of a short Snubbie barrel. You may as well shoot .22LR or .38 Spl. out of a 3"" barrel or shorter barrel. Plus, you have to consider the fact that a RF Round is an older, much less reliable way to ignite a Cartridge. Also, as other Posters have mentioned, you just can't get the trigger as light on a RF Snubbie without failures. That being said, I have 2 J Frame .22's & I have carried them. I just watch out for any solvents and oil around my Cartridges and also change the ammo frequently. Honestly though, I kinda gave up on the carrying a .22 J frame idea, except Backpacking or Hiking in a low threat environment (also carry chromed Gen 1 KT .32acp for that role). I do carry a Mod. 332Ti .32 H&R Mag & I like having a 6 Shot ultra lightweight J Frame.

[titsonritz]

I think Greg and I confirmed and validated our BUG choice and will continue to drive on with our current set up.

I don't blame you, IMO a 442/642 is the best pocket piece to be had.

[DireStraits]

Excellent thread.