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Thread: Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

  1. #1
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    Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

    No. This debate, if it can accurately be termed one, rears its head time and time again. Simply put it comes down to energy, and the 10mm is barely a 357 Magnum in terms of ft. lbs. (500-700 ft. lbs.). Lately the discussion of the efficacy and merit of the 10mm as protection for those of us in Grizzly country came up yet again among some colleagues. Several of us who shoot often and are more versed in ballistics and firearms, chose to carry 44 magnums or greater (460, 454, and 500) - whereas several of our associates who shoot the least if ever (one has never fired his G20), all chose the G20 in 10mm for, "lightweight", "affordability", "rapid followup shots", among other statements. These men are all skilled bow-hunters, outdoors-man, however have little familiarity with firearms in general specifically pistol craft - as a few of them are skilled basic hunting riflemen. To them a bullet is a bullet, a gun a gun, if it goes bang and throws lead - well than it worked. They simply do not pay attention to energy, penetration, or any of the factors related to those facets of the conversation.

    What is your "bear load" hand gun? (Most of us are aware a shotgun or heavy hitting rifle is superior).

    And how much time do you spend in Grizzly country a year?

    I wrote them this as a response recently. To a few of my brothers:

    http://dennyducet.blogspot.com/2016/...-for-bear.html

    Last edited by TacMedic556; 04-17-16 at 18:09. Reason: spelling/additions

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    I can only tell you that when I am in Bear country I carry one of my S&W 44 Mags loaded with 300 gr hard cast lead bullets on top of a stout load of 2400.

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    For me it would be my only wheel gun, although my exposure to brown bear areas is very limited in scope. For reference the revolver in question is a Freedom Arms M83 chambered for .454 Casull. I'd probably run 335gr or 360gr hard cast wide nose flat points with a gas check, and a max safe load of H110 and small magnum rifle primer. Plus I'd assemble these with a very heavy crimp to prevent bullet jump.

    I'd also consider the 300gr Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame in 300gr or 325gr. Again over max safe charges of H110 etc.

    A bullet that isn't heavy enough or tough enough to smash large bones, carry into the target, reach vital organs/damage the central nervous system are worthless.

    A 10mm will surely kill a bear, I have serious doubts that the round can reliably do so in a decisive enough manner to stop the bear from mauling you at close quarters. At least the heavier calibers, well placed, give you a chance of crippling the animal so you can un-ass the area.

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    I'll start by saying I have no illusions that 10mm is on par with magnum calibers. I don't hunt. I've never shot at a bear or any other 4 legged critters.

    But... I carry a Glock on/off duty. I train with them, and compete with them. For the last 10 years I've been focused on Glocks. My concern is that under stress I want every advantage. I want that muscle memory to work for me, not against. I rarely ever shoot a revolver. When I do it's a j-frame and as different from a 460S&W as a Ferrari is from a Prius.

    You can dismiss the fast follow-up shots and capacity, but in my view they are valid points in any situation. If all I have to protect myself from a charging animal is a handgun, I want the ability to put several quick shots on target. We know people hit less under life and death stress with 2 legged attackers, why would a moose or bear be any different? And revolvers by design flip more than semi-autos.

    The path I'm starting down is a Glock 40 (6" 10mm) as a woods gun. I know from another forum that folks have had reliability issues with the G20 and have replaced it with 45 Super (still nowhere near a magnum wheel gun wrt power). This person does live and work in Alaska so I don't dismiss his viewpoints. To date all my camping/hiking has been along the eastern seaboard. Yes there are bears in NC, PA, VA, etc - but not like Alaska or the northwest. I am planning some hikes in The Bob and Alaska in the next couple years, which is what got me shopping for a "woods" gun.

    I plan to start testing the Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator as an option. There's a video of it easily going through bulletproof glass and I'm hoping that what it lacks in energy it will make up for with penetration. Also, the Federal Trophy Bonded 180gr JSP has been out of stock for over a year everywhere.

    Again - I'm not expecting any 10mm to equal a magnum. And I may end up with a revolver one day, but given my experience and training with Glocks I feel I have to give it a go. Besides, all handguns suck and if I'm using one its because the 12ga semi auto full of slugs or the 45-70 lever gun is out of reach. It also means I failed to make noise and stay aware of my surroundings.

    On a side note - the Canadians have a group of game wardens I think (might have been a military unit) who are issued G20's for Polar Bear defense. Aren't Polar Bears more dangerous than Brown and Grizzly bears? I wonder if they have had any actual shootings.
    Before you suggest that licensing, background checks, or other restrictions for the 2nd Amendment are reasonable... Apply those same ideas to the 1st and 4th Amendments. Then tell me how reasonable they are.

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    Excellent write up. Being from kansas, far away from bear country never felt so good.

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    Having carried a g20, 454 casull, and 44 mag in Alaska over the last decade I can say that neither of these calibers are sufficient for stopping a brown/griz. Killing them is a different story. Lots of natives out in the bush kill these and other big critters with their ar's and 22-250's but it's usually a group effort from distance. The only reason I carried any sidearm in the sticks (hunting/fishing) was for a back up to my 338wm or 870 with brenneke black magic slugs and frankly I still felt undergunned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antlad View Post
    Having carried a g20, 454 casull, and 44 mag in Alaska over the last decade I can say that neither of these calibers are sufficient for stopping a brown/griz.
    Can you elaborate a bit on this part?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TacMedic556 View Post
    No. This debate, if it can accurately be termed one, rears its head time and time again. Simply put it comes down to energy, and the 10mm is barely a 357 Magnum in terms of ft. lbs. (500-700 ft. lbs.).
    A heavy 44mag +P+ will more that double that.
    Last edited by titsonritz; 04-17-16 at 21:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKGuns View Post
    Can you elaborate a bit on this part?
    I'm sure he is talking about a charging bear at close range. You had better be cool under pressure and hit the button perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by titsonritz View Post
    A heavy 44mag +P+ will more that double that.
    Exactly. That is my point when I discuss the topic. Take a look at the write up and you'll see that point. The bear load I carry for 44 mag is about 1075 ft. lbs. I have seen loads for 44 mag that are 1600+ ft. lbs. There are many documented Grizzlies killed with 44 magnums. It is what I would consider the starting point for pistols.

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