Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

[teutonicpolymer]

You forgot to include the "sarcastic" emoticon.

By the crazy chance you're actually serious, I'll post a pic of my barrels. You can guess which one is the OEM barrel.



Then of course there's pics of these "myths" all over the internet.

(not my pic)

BTW, this is getting a bit off topic...

I don't see the problem

If you ask Underwood directly they will say that the OEM Glock case support is fine, or at least that is what happened when I contacted them several years back

Unless there is something actually wrong like ruptured cases or failures to function then what is the issue? The Glock smiley face is ALWAYS brought up when people talk about case support

[GJM]

Bear Pistol.



Bear Pistol + Bear Pistol Holster



Questions?

Not bad, if you have the locks removed from them. I had one 329, that if you pressed the trigger DA quickly, you would cause the lock to engage.

[El Cid]

Not bad, if you have the locks removed from them. I had one 329, that if you pressed the trigger DA quickly, you would cause the lock to engage.

Good to see you over here! Yea, my M&P340 started having issues while dry firing. A thorough cleaning seems to have fixed it for now. My G43 has replaced it for pocket carry so I need to send it off to someone who can plug the lock.

Sorry HKguns, but for now this is my idea of a bear pistol (with and without holster).

[TacMedic556]

There is a lot of conjecture in this thread and little actual data. How many bears have been NOT stopped by 10mm? Assuming that data exists, what load and what gun was used? Why did a failure to stop occur?

You can ask the same questions about .44 magnum and probably have just as few conclusive answers.

And there are a few issues that need to be overcome with for example the Glock 20- the slide stop gets knocked up during recoil locking the slide back on non-empty mags for some shooters because the gun is relatively light for the recoil with the right/wrong combinations of loadings, springs, and users. Likewise the ammo needs to be checked out but this is true for all ammo, though maybe more relevant for an autoloader than a revolver. Example: you get a cracked casing due to brittle brass in an autoloader and maybe it chokes, maybe it doesn't, whereas with a revolver you would at most have difficulty extracting the round (this is ignoring catastrophic destructive failures).

There is plenty of information of the .44 mag, 454, 460 and 500 killing a Brown or Grizzly in hunting as well as defense. I have seen several just in perusing articles and forums on this topic. I am sure there are cases where the bear died later or may have not stopped immediately, those cases I have not seen. I have seen one where a bear in Glacier was hit with a .357 Magnum and did not die. I have seen a story out of Alaska where a guy used a Glock 21 in .45 and shot a bear 9 times. http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...d-preserve5943

I think the problem with obtaining the data on finding cases where 10mm failed to stop a threat will be hard to find for a variety of reasons. 10mm is already a fairly rare round as far as proliferation among sidearm carriers. Not only is it rare (by rare I mean scarcer than 9mm, 10mm, 40 S&W, 357, 44 etc.) but 10mm is also rarely carried for the threat of Grizzly or Brown bears by those who knowingly operate in Grizzly country. In that case, I do not think there has been a tremendous amount of incidents where 10mm was used in the defense of life or property from grizzly or brown bear, surely not enough to formulate a percentage or data.

As I already stated, having spent considerable time in that country, living and recreating and still doing so, I chose to go with much higher energy/momentum carrying bullets. If I was not given this particular .44 magnum and money grew on trees I would go out and get either a 454, 460 or a 500 tomorrow.

[Alaskapopo]

All you can hope for with a handgun on bears is to penetrate the skull or reach the spine. A 10mm is my choice now. Big bore revolvers are so slow to shoot and follow up shots are a must. Plus I shoot semi's a lot more than revolvers. But a good DA revolver in 44 mag or higher is not a bad choice as long as you train with it.
Pat

[Coal Dragger]

That's all you can hope for if choose to use an inadequate caliber made for shooting much smaller lighter animals. Like 150-200lb upright monkeys where something like the FBI ammo protocol is about right.

Step up to something with some real power. Handgun hunters that hunt dangerous game probably know a lot more than you do about this subject. Those of them who shoot revolvers use .454 Casull on up for a reason. They work, and can reliably anchor animals bigger and tougher than brown bears.

I'm just curious why revolvers are so much slower to shoot? What's wrong? Your little girl arms can't yank a 50 ounce wheel gun out of a holster and drive it out in front of you? Are you afraid that the beastie will be unimpressed with your slower split times between shots, and therefore be unaffected by the 300-400gr bullets you just hammered him with?

What it sounds like to me is that you would rather press a tool you're comfortable with into service because you're not willing to devote the time to learn how to utilize a better tool for that job. I'll admit that practice with a big bore revolver can be unpleasant with full house loads, but it's not insurmountable.

In the comparative testing I've been able to find the big bore magnum revolvers don't just out penetrate smaller calibers by a little bit, they out penetrate them by a wide margin. If 40" of penetration in wet phone books isn't adequate nothing is. I read an article on a cape buffalo hunt using a .500 S&W, where the author fired one shot, dumped the buffalo, and found 5'6" of penetration including destroying the front shoulder. Cape buffalo usually weigh aroind 2000lbs. These animals have also been taken reliably with .454's and .475's. Not sure I've heard of one being harvested with a 10mm or any other service caliber pistol.

[Alaskapopo]

That's all you can hope for if choose to use an inadequate caliber made for shooting much smaller lighter animals. Like 150-200lb upright monkeys where something like the FBI ammo protocol is about right.

Step up to something with some real power. Handgun hunters that hunt dangerous game probably know a lot more than you do about this subject. Those of them who shoot revolvers use .454 Casull on up for a reason. They work, and can reliably anchor animals bigger and tougher than brown bears.

I'm just curious why revolvers are so much slower to shoot? What's wrong? Your little girl arms can't yank a 50 ounce wheel gun out of a holster and drive it out in front of you? Are you afraid that the beastie will be unimpressed with your slower split times between shots, and therefore be unaffected by the 300-400gr bullets you just hammered him with?

What it sounds like to me is that you would rather press a tool you're comfortable with into service because you're not willing to devote the time to learn how to utilize a better tool for that job. I'll admit that practice with a big bore revolver can be unpleasant with full house loads, but it's not insurmountable.

In the comparative testing I've been able to find the big bore magnum revolvers don't just out penetrate smaller calibers by a little bit, they out penetrate them by a wide margin. If 40" of penetration in wet phone books isn't adequate nothing is. I read an article on a cape buffalo hunt using a .500 S&W, where the author fired one shot, dumped the buffalo, and found 5'6" of penetration including destroying the front shoulder. Cape buffalo usually weigh aroind 2000lbs. These animals have also been taken reliably with .454's and .475's. Not sure I've heard of one being harvested with a 10mm or any other service caliber pistol.

This is not an academic subject for me. I have killed 5 bears 2 of which had charged me. I live in an area of the country where brown bears walk through my back yard and I have to be alert when I go outside in the summer time. This is not something I read about in a hunting magazine.

I carried a Hamilton Bowen custom 5 shot 45 colt built on a Ruger Redhawk for years with 350 grain gas checked lead slugs at 1350 fps. I also own a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .454. I have plenty of experience and skill shooting big bore handguns and it is fun. My change in opinion came after examining the facts. The fact is even big bore rifles fail to stop charging bears if the shots are not placed well. I also know about a fisherman on the Kenai who saved his buddy from a charging brown bear with just a Sig 9mm. Shot placement and penetrate are what matters. A now retired Alaska State Trooper brown shirt (fish and wildlife) I used to work with did a series of tests on brown bear skulls using a variety of hand gun calibers. He had killed more bears and investigated more defense of life and property bear kills than anyone I know. He chose a .357 sig with FMJ bullets as his bear gun after his testing. I am not saying I totally agree with his choice but he has more experience than either one of us on the topic.

I know how fast bears can move. I know if you are shooting a DA revolver in 44 mag you will be lucky to get 2 shots off if the bear charges you from about 10 yards. This is assuming your a very very good shooter. Then there is carrying the gun. I also know from personal experience that ounces become pounds when your hiking up mountain trails. That Bowen became very heavy very fast. A Glock 20 is a feather weight by comparison.

As for shooting I shoot about 15000 to 20000 rounds a year with that being split between pistols, rifles and shotguns. There is only so much time in a day and I don't have time to donate to multiple weapon systems. The Glock 20 works just like what I carry at work just with more recoil.

At the end of the day what matters is shot placement and adequate penetration. You don't need the round to go through 40 inches of phone books. (never had a phone book charge me lol) You need it to penetrate the skull or reach the spine. I respect your choice to carry something different and you have your reasons. However your reasons are not necessarily correct for anyone else.

[OdinIII]

There you go again Alaskapopo, bringing facts and actual experience into this conversation. How can these posters keep arguing if it is obvious who is wrong?

[GJM]

There is a big difference between hunting a brown bear and defending against a brown bear with a handgun.

Hunting certainly favors the large bore revolver because you absolutely need to kill the bear, you are likely shooting at greater distances than defending against a bear, and you are likely shooting for the heart/lungs, possibly at an angle where you first need to penetrate bones.

To stop a bear attack, you simply need to make the bear decide it doesn't want to mess with you. Like people, many bears don't like being shot. That is part of the reason, in the longest running compilation of stats on bear attacks, handguns, many in common service calibers, are slightly more effective than long guns in stopping attacks. The other reason being that handguns are easier to deploy once the attack goes ECQC.

If you had a large determined bear attack you, that only would stop when you penetrate the brain, the big bore revolver would have the edge. If, as statistics show is the case, you only need to make the bear leave you alone, the 10mm/45 Super semi auto becomes pretty good as it holds more rounds, is easier to shoot follow up shots with, and it better than a heavy revolver against a variety of other two and four leg threats.

[Joelski]

If I could have any bear defense, I'd choose my Great Uncle Don. The inside of his house was upholstered in bear pelts. Hemingway would have been moved to tears at that man's hunting prowess.