Any new 41F info/consensus regarding non-RP trustees or the 2yr grace period?

**VelveteenMole** · 06-08-16, 17:58

Last I heard, every Responsible Person will have to submit pics/prints/questionnaire for every new stamp application, only exempting unaltered trusts from submission for 2 years from last submission, though it appeared this is in contradiction to the plain language of the rule.

Is this still the lawyers' consensus and guidance from the ATF?

Is there any clarity as to whether a Co-Trustee can be restricted to mere authority to possess NFA items but not given administrative authority and would thereby be exempted from RP status and obligations by failing the two-pronged test for RP status?

If the above limited authority avoids RP status for a Co-Trustee, is there any clarity as to whether a Successor Trustee can be designated as such a limited Co-Trustee while the Primary Trustee/Settlor is alive/capable, thereby exempting the Successor from RP status until the death or incapacity of the Primary/Settlor?

What about a Beneficiary who is not given authority to possess or administer except upon death or incapacity of the Primary/Settlor?

**SC-Texas** · 06-08-16, 18:10

ETA: On submission of prints and photos: Last guidance from ATF was that they didn't care what they wrote in the rule, they were requiring prints and photos for ALL RPs EVERY time a form is submitted.

Limited Trustees: I believe the answer is that a trustee may be limited in scope as to not meet the definition of responsible persons:

Responsible person.

In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation,

any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

In the case of a trust,
those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include
any person
who has the capability to exercise such power
and
possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust. Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members, or owners. An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the powers or authorities enumerated in this section.v

1. In the case of a trust,
2. persons with the power to direct/manage
3. Capability to exercise that power
4. AND
5. POSSESSES the power to receive, posses, etc.

Therefore, it is a two pronged test for a trust. The trustee must meet both prongs of the test to be an RP.

**BigWaylon** · 06-08-16, 18:18

Originally Posted by VelveteenMole

Last I heard, every Responsible Person will have to submit pics/prints/questionnaire for every new stamp application, only exempting unaltered trusts from submission for 2 years from last submission, though it appeared this is in contradiction to the plain language of the rule.

Is this still the lawyers' consensus and guidance from the ATF?

That's exactly how 41F is written and explained.

Several sources jumped the gun early in to think the prints & photos also had the 24-month exemption, but the regulations themselves never said it.

Every submission will require print & photos for individuals or all responsible parties of an entity. (Plus the 5320.23 for each RP)

**notorious_ar15** · 06-08-16, 18:53

does that mean that everyone on the trust will only have to do this once if no new items are purchased using the trust?

**SC-Texas** · 06-08-16, 18:54

Originally Posted by notorious_ar15

does that mean that everyone on the trust will only have to do this once if no new items are purchased using the trust?

Yes. They will only have to do it when you submit a form after July 13 2016 if they meet the definition of responsible person

If all forms are submitted before July 13th, and no forms are submitted after July 13, no one will have to submit fingerprints and photographs.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

**VelveteenMole** · 06-08-16, 18:57

Originally Posted by SC-Texas

I believe the answer is that a trustee may be limited in scope as to not meet the definition of responsible persons:

Responsible person.

In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation,

any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

In the case of a trust,
those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include
any person
who has the capability to exercise such power
and
possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust. Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members, or owners. An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the powers or authorities enumerated in this section.v

1. In the case of a trust,
2. persons with the power to direct/manage
3. Capability to exercise that power
4. AND
5. POSSESSES the power to receive, posses, etc.

OK, so if someone was named in a trust as an "NFA Limited Co-Trustee" and in the trust, the term "NFA Limited Co-Trustee" is defined "for the purposes of [Name of Trust] as someone who has the authority to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust, under direction of the Trustee/Settlor, but does not have the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust, thus not meeting the definition of a Responsible Person," would that avoid anyone named as an "NFA Limited Co-Trustee" from being considered an RP under the current understanding of the application of 41F?

If so, what about the second question as to the ability to avoid current RP status for a Successor Trustee?
Is future and conditional authority grounds for application of current legal tests for classification of RP status, or can someone be named an "NFA Limited Successor Trustee" (and presumably Beneficiary) who is then defined "for the purposes of [Name of Trust] as someone who has the the authority to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust, under direction of the Trustee/Settlor, but does not have the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust, and thus does not meet the definition of a Responsible Person, unless and until such time as the NFA Limited Successor Trustee would become the Trustee under the remaining provisions for succession of the trust?"

**BigWaylon** · 06-08-16, 19:02

Originally Posted by notorious_ar15

does that mean that everyone on the trust will only have to do this once if no new items are purchased using the trust?

If no items are purchased on/after 7/13/16, they'll never submit photos and prints.

It doesn't matter when the entity was started, how many items, or anything else. There's no notifying the ATF if anything on that date for existing items/entities.

The only thing that matters is the date the form is filed. If before 7/13/16, nothing changes. If on/after that date, the new procedures are followed.

If you have an existing trust, and either never buy another item or buy all future items as an individual or on a different trust, nothing will ever be done with responsible persons on the current trust.

(I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by the question, so hopefully one of those nuggets answers it)

**JG007** · 06-08-16, 19:25

Ive wondered if the ATF will support some type of guideline along the lines of a trustee being a responsible person (user) with prints and photos necessary, and a non user/responsible person will be a beneficiary without prints and photos required.