snub load

[Velo Dog]

My concern with the 135gr SBGDs stemmed from reports that when cold, the ammo did not develope the same velocity, and was actually in the 750 to 800 FPS range, and often did not open up.

This video is from The Chopping Block channel

[backspur]

I bet reloads with those flat nose bullets might be tough, especially with speed loaders.

[moonshot]

These are three links for T2C to review. The 2nd is the same as shown above by Velo Dog. The last actually shows a SBGD success, but I don't believe it was a cold weather test.

There are other reports I've read stating much the same as in the links below (good and bad), but I cannot find them, and I don't want to mis-quote anyone, so until I do find them I won't reference them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6dgkbBxW94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ukjPssIYQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khazbS9pWjE

The cold weather test referenced in the 2nd vid and the low velocity referenced in the 1st vid - both of which resulted in virtually no expansion, is one big reason I have shied away from this round. If it doesn't open up reliably from a short barrel, and therefore causes less wounding than a full WC, what's the point?

I think it might be ideal in a 3" barrel, but I wonder about a sub-2" barrel.

Only if the bonded nature of the round would allow for better hard barrier penetration (autoglass, multiple layers of winter clothes, etc) comparred to a 148gr WC would I consider switching back to the GDs. That's the reason behind my thread.

PS - I have no interest in Buffalo Bore.

[T2C]

Thank you for the links. I always like to see a fresh perspective on ammunition selection, training, etc.

I haven't done any official cold weather testing, but I have put down big deer with my S&W BG38 on two occasions after they were hit by cars. Both were shot in the side into the lungs. The guys who took the deer dug the projectiles out of them for me before we loaded the deer into their pickup trucks. In each case the projectiles opened up and penetration was roughly 10" to 12".

In both cases, the weather was subfreezing and very windy. The BG38 was carried in an ankle holster, but I was not outside the car for more than 10 minutes on either occasion and don't know the temperature of the cartridges when I killed the deer.

I am not an advocate of carrying reloads for self defense, but one of my shooting buddies carries them. He loads a 148g HBWC and it is a hot load. The only thing he has shot with the load is paper.

[moonshot]

T2C, thanks for the perspective. I often carry my airweight on my ankle. I'm glad yours opened up, although 10" to 12" is barely there. What would have happened if that deer had been wearing a down vest under a fiberfill parka would have been interesting. Would have looked kind of funny too (like something from Monty Python).

Maybe the temperature isn't the whole story. Perhaps variations in lot-to-lot production also comes into play. One lot of ammo is loaded on the high side of specs and is less succeptable to low temps, while another lot of ammo is loaded on the low side of the specs, and will work great when warm but not so much when cold.

I have no idea. I suppose the same issues can effect any brand, caliber, or bullet type, especially from short barrels. Maybe that's one of the prices we pay for the convenience of easier carry.

[T2C]

There is no perfect cartridge. I've fired and tested a lot of snub nose cartridges over the past 35 years and have decided the 135g GDHP best fits my needs.

Do your own research, select a cartridge you are comfortable with carrying, train hard and train often.

[LOBO]

T2C - I'll try and find those links.

LOBO - Yes, my main concern is penetration through heavy winter clothing. I've seen some penetration tests into bare gel, but nothing through heavy clothing.

I like WCs in my airweight - they shoot to POA, have nice tight groups, and follow up shots are relatively fast - tighter and faster than they were when I was shooting 135gr GDs. It's not that the GDs were all over the place - I shot them well too, it's just that I shoot the WCs better.

Plus, if I am carrying my J-frame as a bug and I needed to give it to my wife or daughters in an emergency, they can all handle the WC far better than any +P round.

Perhaps the way to ask my question is from the other end - what does the bonded HP that doesn't expand do out of a short barrel that a WC doesn't do? I know these rounds were designed for snubs, and PDs that see their use have reported a great deal of success. Whether they open up is not really the issue. Did they stop the assailant? That's what counts.

If they both do about the same, I'll stick with the WCs (for all the reasons cited above). If the bonded HP does a better job, well then I need to make a decision.

Naturally a JHP that doesn't expand is no better than a wadcutter. That is why I recommended the Corbon 110 gr DPX HP as it is one of the loads tested by DocGKR against Gel w/ 4LD that when fired from a 1 7/8" barrel does expand. It is also easy to reload due to the shape of the bullet. The other loads were Hornadys 110 gr Critical Defense (both +P & standard pressure) as well as Winchesters 130 gr +P JHP (RA38B) load.

I hope this helps.

[JaegerOne]

You might give Remington Golden Saber 125gr.+P JHP a try. I like them more than the Gold dots.

[moonshot]

Thanks to all for suggstions on different HPs I might try, but that wasn't what my initial question was about. I'm not looking for another HP to replace my SBGDs. I know there are several to choose from, and I've tested most.

My feeling is that no HP can be expected to reliably and consistently expand when fired from a sub-2" barrel, particularly if...

The ambient temperature is "cold" and the gun is not carried IWB (where you body will warm the rounds) and
The bullet needs to pass through heavy barriers, such as those likely to be encountered by heavy winter-style clothing or
When should one have to shoot through a car's side window (from inside out)

My ammo requirements...

Controllable for rapid and accurate follow up shots
Shoots to my sights (POA=POI)
Has sufficient mass to offer at least the FBI minimum penetration after passing through heavy barriers such as those above

I currently carry 148gr WCs in my airweight, as they meet most of my requirements. While they don't expand, they do cut a full caliber hole (larger than a RN and larger than a HP that fails to expand), have low recoil in my 15 oz gun, shoot to my sights, and offers sufficient penetration.

The down side is that they tend to have relatively low velocity - 700 FPS (+-). Even the cold and "slow" GDs are moving faster.

My question...

I am comfortable loading up my airweight with WCs under most conditions, but I have begun to wonder if WCs will perform as well when assailants may be wearing heavy winter clothing. In this time of year, should I switch to a heavier round (such as a 158gr LSWC) or a bonded round (such as the 135gr +P SBGD)? I'm not looking for expansion (I don't think I can count on it with any non-magnum load out of a 2" barrel). I'm looking for penetration while keeping my accuracy.

Or am I over thinking this and just continue to use what I shoot fastest and most accurately?

[Ron3]

You could consider a 125 gr swc. You'd get more velocity and they are much easier to load than wadcutters.