Learn me on plate carriers

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I'm now eyeballing the First Spear AAC. It looks like a good PC and the fact the First Spear is apparently the old Eagle crew makes me warm and fuzzy.

It states in the description that it is for Swimmer Cut or ESAPI/Spear Cut ballistic plates. My understanding is that swimmer cut and ESAPI/SPEAR are completely different cuts. Does that mean that this carrier will accept both Swimmer and ESAPI? Is ESAPI and SPEAR the same cut?

What are some trusted brands and vendors of Level III standalone plates? From the research I've done it should probably be a special threat plate as well as steel core 7.62 and M855 abounds. I feel like the odds of encountering M855 by chance are overwhelming good as anyone who is going to walk into a gun shop and buy 5.56 has fairly good odds of picking up M855 without even knowing what it is.


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[cd228]

I'm now eyeballing the First Spear AAC. It looks like a good PC and the fact the First Spear is apparently the old Eagle crew makes me warm and fuzzy.

It states in the description that it is for Swimmer Cut or ESAPI/Spear Cut ballistic plates. My understanding is that swimmer cut and ESAPI/SPEAR are completely different cuts. Does that mean that this carrier will accept both Swimmer and ESAPI? Is ESAPI and SPEAR the same cut?

What are some trusted brands and vendors of Level III standalone plates? From the research I've done it should probably be a special threat plate as well as steel core 7.62 and M855 abounds. I feel like the odds of encountering M855 by chance are overwhelming good as anyone who is going to walk into a gun shop and buy 5.56 has fairly good odds of picking up M855 without even knowing what it is.


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I can't comment on first Spear. I have heard tons of good things about them, but I have no first hand experience. If you look at the pull downs you can specify SAPI cut, I didn't see a swimmer cut.

Yes, there is a difference between Swimmer and ESAPI CUT. take a look at http://www.bulletproofme.com/PHOTO%2...s_PHOTOS.shtml A SAPI cut,(Small Arms Protective Insert) is the plate shape used in my Army issued vest. It maximizes coverage, but you lose a little arm mobility. The Swimmer cut is narrower at the top and is intended to maximize arm mobility. The swimmer cut will have narrower dimensions and may shift in a SAPI cut plate carrier. the plate type you select is dependent on your requirements. I've never had an issue with my SAPI's but I haven't tried to swim in them.

If you looked at the links I posted earlier, you will see that you are probably on the right track with level III+ A.K.A level III compliant with additional independent tests against M855, 7.62X39mm, M193 etc. You can get a level IIII plate that is tested against the level III threat and additional threats (5.56mm, M193, etc.). However the level IIII will be much heavier. Additionally, level IIII doesn't necessarily mean it will stop level III threats or the other threats, it often will but it's not guaranteed. There are level IIII plates that have been tested against multiple stikes of .308 and 5.56mm like the Tencate 4400 http://www.tencate.com/amer/advanced...s/default.aspx . But again, I believe you will be ok with a level III+.

I can only vouch for my US GI plates (ceradyne) and my AT ARMOR ATP3 plates. I have heard good things about Tencate, HESCO, Paracellete, LTC, Velocity and AMI. However, I haven't worn them. For vendors, I used AT ARMOR. My brother purchased a Tencate plate from Chase Tactical, but their selection has shrunk drastically as of late. They had offered TENCATE and HESCO plates from Battalion Defense in the past.

I hope it helps.

[Defaultmp3]

I'd pick the armor plate first, then figure out which carrier fits your plates and your needs.

I have a Tyr PICO, if you have any questions on the Tyr line. Really, the multiple types of PICOs is largely an issue with different plates and soft armor packages, and trying to make sure they fit precisely, so they're not flopping around inside the carrier.

[cd228]

I'd pick the armor plate first, then figure out which carrier fits your plates and your needs.

FWIW Defaultmp3 helped me with my research.

He has a valid point. ideally selecting a plate starts with the user's requirements. What do I need a plate to do, what do I need the plate to stop, what am I going to be doing in the plate. This will lead to your selection criteria for level of plate, material, cut, etc. Then you continue to work from there.

The OP's requirement seems to be a plate to wear at the range and potentially on duty as FD EMS that can defeat common rifle rounds to include
Wal-Mart M855 ammo and support 3 rifle mags, 3 pistol mags, admin pouch, radio.

[Defaultmp3]

It states in the description that it is for Swimmer Cut or ESAPI/Spear Cut ballistic plates. My understanding is that swimmer cut and ESAPI/SPEAR are completely different cuts. Does that mean that this carrier will accept both Swimmer and ESAPI? Is ESAPI and SPEAR the same cut?

ESAPI and SPEAR have the same shape; SPEAR itself is a rather nebulous designation, and in terms of armor, you'll often see it used in conjunction with the term BALCS, which is a soft armor package. The difference in SPEAR and ESAPI is that ESAPI plates are very specific in their specifications, and are all the same shape, thickness, etc.; a SPEAR plate simply has to fit into the SPEAR-related carriers, along with the other various requirements for the SPEAR program itself. I know, it's confusing. But for all intents and purposes, as a civilian, yes, they are the same cut.

Swimmer cut is also sometimes called shooter's cut. Generally, a swimmer cut plate of the same size as an ESAPI cut plate will fit fine, as it simply clips off more of the plate in the upper corners to give you more range of motion and room to mount the rifle. Issues of curvature can occasionally create issues, though I wouldn't worry about it too much.

The issue with plates is a question of how much do you want to spend. Weight and thickness are possible issues to look at, beyond the issues of cost and performance. You can find many cheap ceramic plates that will do the job just fine, but at the cost of weight and thickness. Curvature of the plate can also be an issue; single curve plates are cheaper, but less comfortable. Yeah, wearing thick, heavy plates suck, especially in hot weather, but it won't be any worse than standing around in your bunker gear with SCBA.

Carrying 3 rifle mags is easy. Adding the 3 pistol mags... eh. Where would you put the pistol mags? Mounting them in front of the rifle mags starts to pose issues of profile. Not a big deal if you're just standing around, but if you have to go prone, climb walls, etc., it could present an issue. How much of the stuff you wish to carry can be run off the belt? Radio, for example, or possibly the admin pouch; what would go in the admin pouch that you can't reasonably stuff into cargo pants pockets? Those are certainly items you could mount on the side of the plate carrier, but again, that can present some issues with profile and/or mobility. Just some thoughts is all.

An off-the-cuff suggestion would be to get two of these; with the current sale, that leaves you 300 USD for a PC, and while they're thick, they're relatively lightweight: http://store.atarmor.com/product_p/at-atp3-10x12cm.htm
While it does not say it was tested for M193, the ceramic/poly construction suggests it would do fine against it, as traditionally, the poly plates struggled with M855, but dealt with M193 adequately (alloy plates were usually in reverse, dealing with M855 fine, but being defeated by the M193). This plate would most likely get you through the common CONUS threats. Get in touch with Mike at AT Armor if you have any doubts, dude is definitely one of the good guys in the armor industry.

[cd228]

See, I told you default is smart. The only thing I disagree with him on is sizing. 10x12 is a medium plate using US Army SAPI sizes, usually worn by the smaller folks.I believe you should select the proper size to cover your vital areas. For example, I am 70 inches tall and about 200 pounds and I wear a SAPI large (10x13). It dosen't sound like much difference, but if the bullet goes under your plate because you were cheap it's a bad day.

[Defaultmp3]

See, I told you default is smart. The only thing I disagree with him on is sizing. 10x12 is a medium plate using US Army SAPI sizes, usually worn by the smaller folks.I believe you should select the proper size to cover your vital areas. For example, I am 70 inches tall and about 200 pounds and I wear a SAPI large (10x13). It dosen't sound like much difference, but if the bullet goes under your plate because you were cheap it's a bad day.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. And you're right about the sizing issue. The 10"×12" sizing is fairly close to the ESAPI medium (which is 9.5"×12.5"), and is basically one of those one-size-fits-all sizes that has become popular (which also sort of could mean that one-size-fits-none). The main reason I suggested it was simply due to cost, as it was on sale, and is arguably a "good enough" solution (should you believe in such an idea for PPE). The size issue is something of a mobility/coverage issue; if you can rock a size large or extra large without it impeding your mobility, there is no reason why you shouldn't go for that extra coverage, other than cost and weight considerations, and even if it does, it may be something you're willing to give up for that extra protection. To be truly correct in your sizing, try and make it so that your plates are covering the areas illustrated by the diagrams and quotes below:

Front/chest plate

The top of your plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch aka jugular notch. If you follow your sternum towards your head, the soft spot you reach at the top of it is the suprasternal notch. Your plate should ride at least level with the top of your sternum while standing.

The importance of positioning the plate at the top of the SN Notch is that you have a bundle of large blood vessels which rest on top of your heart and lie behind the manubrium (the uppermost portion of your sternum), most notably the aortic arch. The aortic arch receives blood from your left ventricle and will have the highest velocity of all the blood in you systemic circulatory system. Get hit here and you will be done. So, make sure your plate is riding higher, rather than lower because protecting your aortic arch is much more important than protecting your guts.

Also, as you can clearly see with the image below, a smaller plate allows for more comfort and mobility to the shooter will not necessarily mean you will leave immediately incapacitating areas unprotected -large plates will only cover a little more of your peripheral lung tissue and guts.

Red is your heart and related blood vessels
Dark Grey/Yellow is a properly positioned plate
The sternum and clavicle are white with black outline

Positioning of rear/back plate

Find the most prominent bony eminence at the base of your neck. This is your vertebral eminence. Count down two bony spinouses (or measure down about an inch) and that should be above the level of the superior aspect of your sternum. Positioning at least this high will ensure your entire heart and its immediately related blood vessels are protected.

The vertebral eminence is marked in the diagram below in blue.

FWIW, I am 5'8" (68"), and ~140 lbs., and I went with ESAPI size small (though I also have 6"×6" side plates for my overt/Instagram plate carrier).

[lawusmc0844]

I've been issued and given the Eagle Scalable Plate Carrier, the newer issue (IMTV) Plate Carrier, and I've purchased the Ares Armor Aspis and Mayflower Low Profile Armor Carrier.

Out of all of these carriers I have experience with, I find the USMC Plate Carrier to be the most comfortable, especially with the inner cummerbund helping to better distribute the weight and keep the carrier off my shoulders. The only issues are the bulky side SAPI carriers with non removable soft armor and the fact they they are not on the commercial or surplus market as they are current issue. I did get one from ebay but ended up selling it back on there breaking even as it was pricey (I think I paid $360 for it)

My Ares Armor Aspis has been my primary overt PC but now Im looking to sell it as the weight still pushes on to my shoulders, and the front panel that secures over the cummerbund also has to be tucked behind the plate where my abdomen is, extremely annoying. Otherwise its still a decent, well made, minimalistic carrier. I use medium BAE Eclipse plates and custom soft armor backers that Ares Armor helped make for me when they were still in business. The BAE plates are basically the exact same size and profile as ESAPI plates but they actually feel lighter to me compared to issued ESAPIs.

My Mayflower LPAAC is my low profile carrier and I use Velocity Systems LPAAC cut soft armor and VS Level III/IV ICW plates with it. These plates are 9.5" x 11.5" and much thinner than medium ESAPIs and my BAE Eclipse but weigh about a pound more. I have worn it under a suit out in public before without anyone noticing so its definitely good to go in that aspect. The only issues is the elastic cummerbund isnt the greatest so I feel pressure on my shoulders and eventually back when bending forward or getting into my shooting stance. Also the corners are a little wide so I have to slig exaggerate my elbows out when firing a handgun. Overall, this carrier works but mainly use it for low pro occasions or as a backup.

I am 5'8 and currently 164lbs (was around 170-175 when I was active duty) and mediums have always worked best for me. I can easily wear small but I prefer the extra coverage, and the extra coverage and weight doesn't slow me down any more than actually having to wear all my shit anyway lol.

I preordered the ESSTAC Daeodon from SKD a few days ago when they had their one day Black Friday sale for them. It will be 6-8 weeks before I see it but I'm hoping it will fit my BAE plates and soft armor backers and be comfortable.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Defaultmp3, thanks a lot for the help. You pretty much answered all the questions I had. The AT armor plates you linked to were even the ones I was looking at. I'll email First Spear to confirm but I'm going to guess that since a Swimmer/Shooter cut plate is just a SAPI/SPEAR that's been trimmed in the upper corners, the plate carrier probably fits both.

The reason I wanted to mount both pistol and rifle mags on the vest is simplicity and ease of access. My goal is to be able to throw on the vest and have as much as I can in one place, however if it's gets too thick I may reconsider that as my pistol is carried on my belt.


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[Mr. Goodtimes]

With the help of the dudes (and possibly dudettes) in this thread and a few days of researching until my head hurt, I feel like I've figured out what I'm going to go with.

Plate Carrier: First Spear AAC w/ 3 M4 mag and 3 pistol mag.
Why?: I like to have all my shit in one place. For me, a plate carrier isn't something I wear all day every day, it's something I will be be donning in a hurry if things get shitty, thus I want something that I can grab and go with when things get weird, and have the minimum I need to fight. This setup allows me 120 rounds of rifle and up to three pistol mags, which can also be substituted for a multi tool, knife or flashlight. It will likely be ran with two spare pistol mags and a backup flashlight as on any given duty day I typically have on my person a folding knife, flashlight and multi tool. I also like that this PC has built in radio pouches. If the pistol mags prove to make things too cumbersome, I can always move them to the belt and just run an M4 mag shingle up front.

Plates: Either the AT Armor ATP3 or STOP-BZ. The stop BZ is twice as much, however, its also half as thick and weights approx 1lb less per plate. I don't feel I need the 7.62 API protection, but the reduced weight and thickness is nice. I'll give it some thought, they're out of my budget but if I kopeks I can swing it. Both plates are multi curve, both stop M855 and 7.62x39 MSC which are two of the three speciality threats that I'm primarily concerned with, however the ATP3 does not state that it is tested against M193, and from what I understand, just because a plate will stop M855 does not mean it will stop M193 correct?