Does 12ga birdshot behave just like a slug at close range?

**AndrewWiggin** · 12-03-16, 10:18

https://youtu.be/T26cV_M_oAE

I've had several people tell me that at "close range" birdshot is fine for defense because it all hits in a single mass and acts like a slug. That's obviously stupid but hey, why not? Let's see what happens. I place the barrel of my shotgun a few inches from the gel block to see if it's possible for birdshot pellets to penetrate adequately when they impact together.

Also, because I can't get enough of that TSC:

**plain old dave** · 12-03-16, 10:42

Right on. Try 3-4 from a "slam fire" shot gun like a Winchester 93/97/12, Ithaca 37 or Stevens 520/620. There is no way to get more lead in the air in a hurry in a short space than a "slam fire" shotgun. Hold trigger, work pump handle.

**MegademiC** · 12-03-16, 22:23

Thanks. I just heard this recently, again. I don't know why some people think physics changes if you're "close enough". How the hell doe the shot know how far it is? Maybe they don't know how a wad works?

Anyway, only thing I caught was you mispoke and said the largest shot should be #4, but I knew what you meant.

**AndrewWiggin** · 12-03-16, 22:25

Derp. I'm retarded.

**Ron3** · 12-03-16, 22:31

Neat. Enjoyed it.

After seeing #4 buck only partially perforate a 6 inch wide nuisance animal at close range I wouldn't recommend it.
I wouldn't fault someone for choosing #1 buck but I prefer 00, 000, double ball or slugs.

**mark5pt56** · 12-04-16, 05:48

The only GSW I've seen with birdshot was a calf and shoulder shot, same guy. Nothing deep, but the parts looked like hamburger, if they hit vitals close to the surface it may cause an issue. The circumstances were funny though and I would've loved to see a video if it existed. Fight at the entrance of a townhome-about a 6'x6' area, one guy dancing madly as the other unloaded the riot gun with 9 rounds of bird at him-hit him twice. It must've looked like the Matrix on steroids.

**Sensei** · 12-07-16, 02:41

Originally Posted by mark5pt56

The only GSW I've seen with birdshot was a calf and shoulder shot, same guy. Nothing deep, but the parts looked like hamburger, if they hit vitals close to the surface it may cause an issue. The circumstances were funny though and I would've loved to see a video if it existed. Fight at the entrance of a townhome-about a 6'x6' area, one guy dancing madly as the other unloaded the riot gun with 9 rounds of bird at him-hit him twice. It must've looked like the Matrix on steroids.

I treat someone shot at close range with birdshot about once per year (~10 cases in my career). All have been discharged from the emergency department.

FWIW, there are cases of delayed embolization of pellets that were presumably swept up by the lymphatics and delivered to the RV.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article.../66_7_707/_pdf

I believe that the lawyer Dick Cheney shot had this complication.

**williejc** · 12-08-16, 19:15

I can think of three significant variables in any experiment with bird shot: size of shot from the very small #9 to the very large #2; weight of shot charge; and velocity of shot charge. Unless the experiment controls these, no valid conclusions can be drawn and no inferences made. However, I advocate buckshot and never encourage the other choices. For conversational purposes, my guess is that a heavy load with #2 through #6 at maximum velocity would be lethal at point blank range, and the larger the shot load, the higher the probability of the statement being true. This statement is opinion.