Replacement for .308 in law enforcement?

[BAC]

Evening gents. I was curious if there are any viable replacements for .308 in the world of law enforcement. Rounds like .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7mm-08 come to mind as improvements on external ballistics, but are any of them able to replace .308 in terminal ballistics? Performance through light barriers? Doing a bit of range finding around my city and most of the time our .308 guns would be deployed would be for shots well beyond 100m, some out to 500m and beyond.

To clarify, I'm more curious than hopeful. I know hunters have taken deer-size game reliably and with authority using the 6.5 to 7mm rounds for decades, so they're clearly good enough to put a bad guy to rest. Having said that, the sheer versatility of the .308's ammo selection and barrel life make a hell of an argument to stay the course.

Thoughts?

[SPDSNYPR]

I don't see the .308 going anywhere. Long range ballistics mean very little across the street, where most sniper shootings take place. Real long range shootings happen about as often as Bigfoot captures. Barrier penetration must be tested, so now you're at square one trying to match an open air and barrier round. And as you said, barrel life becomes an issue with smaller bores. An LE .308 bolt gun will last forever. Ammo manufacturers have put a lot of time and effort into the .308, it works well enough, and police admin usually isn't looking for something new and untested to put out on the street. If someone large doesn't do it first, it won't happen. Plus everything is already built around the .308. Change costs money, and if there isn't some real deficit, there is no reason to switch caliber.

[jpgm]

Have you checked department policy to see if anything is written in "stone" as far as caliber and rifles? If your department already has a stockpile of training and duty ammo that might be the answer.

jpgm

[BAC]

Oh there's no way in hell we'll convince higher ups to consider another caliber. Carbines are .223, precision rifles are .308, and as we switch to a new duty handgun they're trying to enforce 9mm only on that front. As I said, it's more of a personal curiosity that I can brainstorm over a beer with the guys at training. A bunch of guys are pushing for 300 Blackout, though, but I can't see that happening unless someone puts on a stellar demo for the chief or, more likely, if the next chief is more of a gear/gun guy.

SPDSNYPR, That answer is pretty much what I was figuring. There was a time when my department would be the one to explore new options, but that time seems to have passed with these new generations of leadership.

[diving dave]

I was never a sniper when I worked in law enforcement, but my opinion 308 will be the norm for a long time. Our swat guys did have a suppressed 300 Win mag, which was nicknamed the airport gun. It was purchased with the intent of having to use it during a critical incident at the airport where longer shots or better penetration might be needed.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I think even today, it's really hard to beat 7.62 NATO for urban precision rifle work. External ballistics are too close to matter out to 500m and ammo is cheaper, more available, and there are a lot more excellent factory options out there in 7.62 than other calibers. I'm a big fan of the 6.5's but if I was building a purpose built <500m precision killing rifle, it would likely still be a 7.62 NATO.


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[Tspeis]

Evening gents. I was curious if there are any viable replacements for .308 in the world of law enforcement. Rounds like .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7mm-08 come to mind as improvements on external ballistics, but are any of them able to replace .308 in terminal ballistics? Performance through light barriers? Doing a bit of range finding around my city and most of the time our .308 guns would be deployed would be for shots well beyond 100m, some out to 500m and beyond.

To clarify, I'm more curious than hopeful. I know hunters have taken deer-size game reliably and with authority using the 6.5 to 7mm rounds for decades, so they're clearly good enough to put a bad guy to rest. Having said that, the sheer versatility of the .308's ammo selection and barrel life make a hell of an argument to stay the course.

Thoughts?

I'll preface this by saying I own a 260 and for its intended role, I love it. A few things worth considering...



- 6.5 advantages over 308 aren't evident until you're shooting past 600 meters +/-

- Most rifle calibers, regardless of starting velocity or projectile weight, will exhibit the same terminal performance when impacting targets beyond 300 meters (enter, yaw, exit). So for shots past 300, hit probability is the concern.

- When it comes to terminal performance, with all else being equal, mass generally trumps velocity. This is especially true when shooting through dense bone. Perfect example, compare the 110 gr, 155 gr, and 165 gr AMAX 308 loads. They're all of the same construction, yet differ significantly due to projectile weight. The advantage there goes to 308 over 6.5. Additionally, this is only really relevant for shots from 0-300 (as noted above).

- Because the 6.5's use very long-for-caliber projectiles, they take up more case room than 308 projectiles of identical weight. This often results in the 308 being more efficient from short barrels and getting higher velocities with the same projectile weight than 260 Rem, 6.5 CM, etc...from shorter barrels. Compare a 130 gr 308 from a 13" gun to a 130 gr 260 Rem from a 20" gun. Velocities will be almost identical. There are trade offs for sure. The 20" 260 will have better trajectory, but the 13" 308's terminal performance (depending on projectile construction and other factors) will likely be on par with the 20" 260. Calibers such as 260 or 6.5 CM really require longer barrels in order to get adequate velocity and performance.

- 260 has about 30 - 40% less recoil than 308. Non-issue. Throw something like a KAC MAMS brake on your 308 and now it's shooting like a 7.62x39 or heavy 5.56. There are other recoil impulse mitigation options that will be available soon, but have not yet been tested or validated. So the jury is still out on that.

- 308 has currently available and soon to be available loads that exceed FBI protocol requirements for terminal performance through intermediate barriers in 12" - 16" barrels. The 6.5's do not.



So in a nutshell, and this last tidbit is simply my opinion, I'm of the belief that 308 can do everything 6.5 can do, but the same is not true in reverse. There are 308 projectiles out there that offer the trajectory advantages of 6.5 out of shorter barrels. However, the 6.5's require longer barrels in order to achieve similar terminal performance to short barreled 308. Frank Galli tested Warner 160 gr Flatline 308's and his comment was they "turned his 20" 308 into a 26" 6.5." I know of NO 6.5 loads that will best a Remington 150 gr Core Lokt Ultra Bonded or 155 gr AMAX from a 16" - 20" barrel. There's a reason why the military circles using 260 Remington aren't going shorter than 18" with 140 gr loads.

If you're shooting to 1,200 meters, 260 has clear advantages over 308. Can I get a 308 to shoot like a 260 to 1,200? Absolutely. In all fairness, it will cost quite a bit more to get a 308 to do what 260 does at that distance, so that depends on what you want to get out of your platform and how much you're willing to spend. If you're shooting as far as 500 (as you mentioned) and terminal performance is your primary concern, there's nothing any of the calibers you mentioned will offer that 308 doesn't.


Tspeis