Short shuck your Rem 870?? No. Not really.

[williejc]

During a 1981 training program at the Texas prison, my 870 shotgun class was taught by armorers who trained at the Remington factory. From them I learned about a certain 870 operator error that few understand. Many call it short shucking. This term implies incomplete movement of the action to the rear and then pushing the action forward and hearing a click when pulling the trigger. Yes, the shooter had an empty chamber. But note. He can get an empty chamber when pulling with great force all the way back and then pushing or slamming with great force all the way forward. When having this malfunction, trainees are told that they short shucked. They did not. When hunters have this malfunction with 870s, they might say that they short shucked. They did not. My opinion is that 99.99% of what people call short shucking is a different error. The big clue is that in these instances the next in line shell never made its trip onto the follower. Why?

If the action moved rearward and activated the second shell latch to release the next shell, and this next shell didn't jump onto the follower, what happened? Answering this question will explain the malfunction, which has three events:

(1)In a fraction of a second at the instant of firing, recoil in some instances will propel the shooters hand on the fore end to jump back about 2 3/4 to 3 inches.

(2)As fore end moves rearward, action bars activate the 1st shell latch. It moves toward the mag tube's centerline.

(3)Recoil thrusts the gun backwards with enough force to allow the next in line shell to move forward in the tube. This shell had been held by the 2nd shell latch. But now the 1st shell latch in no. 2 above--having already been activated--catches and holds the shell. Thus, it is not now available to be placed on the follower. The shell had to move forward merely 1/8 inch from one latch to the other.

As the fore end is pumped to the rear to eject the empty and then move forward, it does so without a live shell. The next in line shell was not available, because it was "trapped" by the 1st latch. The shooter cycles the action, pulls the trigger, and click. High recoil loads like buckshot/slugs are a factor, but light weight as found in security 870s can be a another factor. In hunting versions I experienced the malfunction when using magnum loads and switching from a 30 inch heavy barrel to a 26 inch light contour barrel. I altered my grip to adapt. Several variables can interact to cause this type malfunction: improper grip technique on fore end, heavy recoil, and to a lesser extent the gun being lighter.

[Leaveammoforme]

Would a fresh magazine spring minimize the ammo bounce? Or, is this a possible issue inherit to 870's in general?

[williejc]

I've tried extremely strong uncut Wolff springs and had the same result. Yes, its inherent in 870s. Remington eliminated it in the 1100. Mossberg's design does not permit its occurring. The old Win Model 12 had included a part that caused a small split second hesitation to prevent it. The hesitation was completely unnoticeable. If you ever pick up a M 12 and try to cycle the action, after snapping it, you have to push forward before pulling back on the slide. I've tried many, many times to short shuck an 870 and never have been able to do it. You can screw up and not eject the empty by moving the action too slowly, but that's not short shucking.

[SeriousStudent]

I have a Winchester Model 12 that was made in 1928. You do have to push the slide forward just a scosch before you cycle it.

The three 870's I have will short stroke if I fail to fully cycle the slide. I've done it a couple of times on the range. It's also why a practice a LOT with my shotguns. You have to keep the reps up, just like dry practice with a pistol trigger.

And I always replace the magazine springs with a Wollff as soon as I get a shotgun.

I had a Mossberg 590A1, and got rid of it. It's a great shotgun for lefties, which is why I had it. But everyone I train with shotguns currently shoots right-handed.

I think a lot of people just don't realize how much maintenance a shotgun needs. And when they go down, they go down hard. As in, trip to a gunsmith hard.

[williejc]

Agreed. Notice that our commonly used l.e. and military shotguns have been sporting guns with shortened barrels. I think that one reason that they have held up is that they are seldom fired. In law enforcement agencies, wear and tear comes from some degree of neglect and from being knocked around. During the Vietnam War, Stevens sold the government a pump shotgun that had a reputation for being unreliable. They were discarded and another issued when they croaked. During the 1970s, Smith marketed a pump riot gun for l.e., which was based on the old Noble shotgun of previous decades. It too was a huge failure and embarrassment to S&W. The famous Ithaca 37 pump of military and law enforcement fame lacked a disconnect and would slam fire with careless use. The 37 could not be disassembled without first removing the stock and then removing receiver screws. How could a grunt or other GI have kept this weapon clean? So, the 870 and 590 series shotguns compare favorably to some others that have been issued.

Our shotguns--designed to shoot at birds, ducks, rabbits, squirrels and deer--are most certainly not robust weapons. As you stated, they will go down fast. All in all the 870 and 590 series are good but not indestructible or unbreakable as some in the past have claimed.

[SeriousStudent]

...... All in all the 870 and 590 series are good but not indestructible or unbreakable as some in the past have claimed.

Which is why I own five shotguns.

[26 Inf]

Our shotguns--designed to shoot at birds, ducks, rabbits, squirrels and deer--are most certainly not robust weapons. As you stated, they will go down fast. All in all the 870 and 590 series are good but not indestructible or unbreakable as some in the past have claimed.

I don't want to disagree, but define 'go down fast.' The picture below is one from a tutoral I made on replacing the ejector and ejector spring on an 870 before I retired. Remington no longer teaches this in their armorer courses and I wanted to make sure the guy taking over shotguns knew how to do it.

Attachment 43252

By serial number the receiver was made between 1978 and 1983. In the 36 years we had this shotgun, I would estimate it fired well over 45,000 roads based on how our shotgun training progressed. I was replacing the original ejector, not sure about the spring because we can often use the same rivet. Look at the wear in the receiver where the action bar rides, those edges are sharp.

This is one of about 2 dozen Remington 870's we use for shotgun training. 870's in general are durable shotguns. A home defense user, or a hunter, will probably never have to replace the things that I was replacing on our high-mileage shotguns, in particular action bar lock springs and action bars.

Unbreakable, no. Durable, yes.

[Chickenhawks]

Thanks! Good info. You learn something new every day.

Even with thousands of students over the years and literally many tens of thousands of rounds through 870s, we experienced this rarely. One of the reasons is because I always encourage them to work WITH the recoil and not fight it. They are expected to pump the action immediately after pulling the trigger, even if they are not ready to fire a follow-up shot; the next round will still already be chambered.

With practice, this becomes instinctive, and is one of the factors that can give the pump-action shotgun its very fast speed. This is also why I don't believe in the "pull back into your shoulder and push forward on the pump" in training. I tested it extensively, and found it just does not work for our style of training and the need for simple, fast and completely instinctive actions.

Plus, I learned a long time ago that saving the 'sound" of a pump being racked in order to scare off the bad guy, almost never works in real life ... and certainly NEVER works in polar bear country. (If you wait to pump that second shot, you will get eaten.)

I would also like to add one further point. I have seen a few "short strokes" over the years, but certainly, as the OP pointed out, far less than are actually attributed to a short stroke. But if its an 870 made in the last 15 years, and if it has a magazine extension, add to the possible problems that a shell got momentarily delayed in the tube.

I have found (again through extensive testing) that it is almost always a very fast shooter combined with a shell that gets momentarily stuck at the two-piece magazine joint. In all the years I have been training, I have never found a solution to this problem. I have tried every follower, spring and tube on the market, and none of them have worked, especially on anything built on an Express shotgun line.

The only thing is, 99% of all shotgun shooters would never experience this, simply because very few people can actually pump the action this fast. (I am talking those people who can achieve split times of .22 to .25 seconds, shot-to-shot, on an 870.)

A shell momentarily slowed down when it reaches the joint of a two-piece tube has similar symptoms of a short stroke, and EXACTLY the same symptoms as the situation related by williejc.

If its made in the last 15 years, and its an 870 with a two-piece tube, suspect the quality control at Remington. (By the way, the 870 Police is NOT made on some super-secret special assembly line any more, nor is it less prone to problems with rough chambers or two-piece tubes. I have seen some 870 Police shotguns in the past 10 years that were almost as bad as the Express shotguns.)

By the way, this is also why, when the rest of the world wants longer tubes, greater capacity and more extensions ... I take OFF the extensions from my two-piece tubes on all my personal bear guns and replace them with end-caps.

I would much rather have four that work 100% of the time, than six that work 99% of the time. 99% is neither acceptable odds for me or for skydiving.

Plus, if I miss with four slugs, I deserve to get eaten.

[williejc]

My malfunctions occurred during duck or dove hunting using heavy loads. Careless procedure was the cause. Using a weak or neutral grip allowed the hesitation cycling described in numbers 1-3 of my first post. I thought that I was pumping as soon as I fired but still ended up with an empty chamber. I'm not a professional in any sense of the word; therefore, I am not qualified to offer training advice. A an old school skeet/trap/duck hunter did show me how to eliminate or prevent the malfunction without consciously pushing forward. Following his advice, I do this: I place my index finger along the side of the fore end. With my gun, the finger ends up pointing in a 40 ish degree angle and fits into the groove on the fore end. This arrangement lets me pump fast as hell and never have the unwanted empty chamber. Why? Because it allows that split second to pass when recoil might cause a weak grip to open the action and thus start the 1-3 sequence above. I use the technique on all pump guns. The finger in the groove part is not necessary but occurs with my Wingmaster. This method may or may not be suitable to teach in classes with large numbers of students. Whenever I shot buckshot or slugs over the years I made an effort to use a strong grip. The problem sneaked up on me during hunting when I switched from a 30 inch barrel to a light contour 26 inch barrel, which was much lighter.

Obviously millions of shooters have spent a lifetime shooting 870 12 gauges and never had a malfunction. The intention of the post is to show that many 870 malfunctions are not short shucks. Understanding this fact can help others be aware that their grip must not be weak or neutral when shooting buckshot/slugs/other magnum shells. If the shooter does end up with an empty chamber after pumping, then the most probable cause is 1-3 explained in the original post.

Has anyone noticed the similarity of the 1-3 malfunction to the cruiser ready position in the 870?

[Joe Mamma]

I would also like to add one further point. I have seen a few "short strokes" over the years, but certainly, as the OP pointed out, far less than are actually attributed to a short stroke. But if its an 870 made in the last 15 years, and if it has a magazine extension, add to the possible problems that a shell got momentarily delayed in the tube.

I have found (again through extensive testing) that it is almost always a very fast shooter combined with a shell that gets momentarily stuck at the two-piece magazine joint. In all the years I have been training, I have never found a solution to this problem. I have tried every follower, spring and tube on the market, and none of them have worked, especially on anything built on an Express shotgun line.

The only thing is, 99% of all shotgun shooters would never experience this, simply because very few people can actually pump the action this fast. (I am talking those people who can achieve split times of .22 to .25 seconds, shot-to-shot, on an 870.)

A shell momentarily slowed down when it reaches the joint of a two-piece tube has similar symptoms of a short stroke, and EXACTLY the same symptoms as the situation related by williejc.

Some 3 gun competition shooters who use Remington 870 shotguns are aware of these problems, and here is the fix. It's a modified action bar to change the timing when you pump it. It works.

Rem 870 Action Bar Modi.jpg

Joe Mamma