Short shuck your Rem 870?? No. Not really.

[davidz71]

Oh, most of the clicks I have heard on the line was because the shooter did not pull the forearm back far enough. Some people don't get the "pull the forearm back hard" idea and the reason for it.

[SeriousStudent]

I don't want to disagree, but define 'go down fast.' The picture below is one from a tutoral I made on replacing the ejector and ejector spring on an 870 before I retired. Remington no longer teaches this in their armorer courses and I wanted to make sure the guy taking over shotguns knew how to do it.

Attachment 43252

By serial number the receiver was made between 1978 and 1983. In the 36 years we had this shotgun, I would estimate it fired well over 45,000 roads based on how our shotgun training progressed. I was replacing the original ejector, not sure about the spring because we can often use the same rivet. Look at the wear in the receiver where the action bar rides, those edges are sharp.

This is one of about 2 dozen Remington 870's we use for shotgun training. 870's in general are durable shotguns. A home defense user, or a hunter, will probably never have to replace the things that I was replacing on our high-mileage shotguns, in particular action bar lock springs and action bars.

Unbreakable, no. Durable, yes.

I do agree with you. My point was that most typical shotguns or lever-actions require a trip to the gunsmith when they break. Not that they break all the time. It's usually not an end user remedy like replacing an AR bolt to return the weapon to service. It often requires the services of a trained armorer such as yourself.

I'd love to get into one of the Remington shotgun armorer classes, but unfortunately they seem to restrict them to LEO or agency support folks.

I have a pair of 870P's, and a Wingmaster, in addition to a Winchester Model 12 and and a Beretta 1301. I made a point to have them checked out by a highly-experienced shotgun mechanic prior to making them defense guns. I am fortunate to have such a person nearby.

And this is the Wingmaster SBS in the hands of a friend, during a recent training class. The pic was shot by Voodoo_Man, who is a member here:

Darryl.jpg

It's a joy to shoot.

[SeriousStudent]

Oh, most of the clicks I have heard on the line was because the shooter did not pull the forearm back far enough. Some people don't get the "pull the forearm back hard" idea and the reason for it.

Agreed, I tell people to treat it like a cheap hammer from Harbor Freight - treat it hard and handle it forcefully.

[Chickenhawks]

Thanks! Good info. You learn something new every day.

Even with thousands of students over the years and literally many tens of thousands of rounds through 870s, we experienced this rarely. One of the reasons is because I always encourage them to work WITH the recoil and not fight it. They are expected to pump the action immediately after pulling the trigger, even if they are not ready to fire a follow-up shot; the next round will still already be chambered.

With practice, this becomes instinctive, and is one of the factors that can give the pump-action shotgun its very fast speed. This is also why I don't believe in the "pull back into your shoulder and push forward on the pump" in training. I tested it extensively, and found it just does not work for our style of training and the need for simple, fast and completely instinctive actions.

Plus, I learned a long time ago that saving the 'sound" of a pump being racked in order to scare off the bad guy, almost never works in real life ... and certainly NEVER works in polar bear country. (If you wait to pump that second shot, you will get eaten.)

I would also like to add one further point. I have seen a few "short strokes" over the years, but certainly, as the OP pointed out, far less than are actually attributed to a short stroke. But if its an 870 made in the last 15 years, and if it has a magazine extension, add to the possible problems that a shell got momentarily delayed in the tube.

I have found (again through extensive testing) that it is almost always a very fast shooter combined with a shell that gets momentarily stuck at the two-piece magazine joint. In all the years I have been training, I have never found a solution to this problem. I have tried every follower, spring and tube on the market, and none of them have worked, especially on anything built on an Express shotgun line.

The only thing is, 99% of all shotgun shooters would never experience this, simply because very few people can actually pump the action this fast. (I am talking those people who can achieve split times of .22 to .25 seconds, shot-to-shot, on an 870.)

A shell momentarily slowed down when it reaches the joint of a two-piece tube has similar symptoms of a short stroke, and EXACTLY the same symptoms as the situation related by williejc.

If its made in the last 15 years, and its an 870 with a two-piece tube, suspect the quality control at Remington. (By the way, the 870 Police is NOT made on some super-secret special assembly line any more, nor is it less prone to problems with rough chambers or two-piece tubes. I have seen some 870 Police shotguns in the past 10 years that were almost as bad as the Express shotguns.)

By the way, this is also why, when the rest of the world wants longer tubes, greater capacity and more extensions ... I take OFF the extensions from my two-piece tubes on all my personal bear guns and replace them with end-caps.

I would much rather have four that work 100% of the time, than six that work 99% of the time. 99% is neither acceptable odds for me or for skydiving.

Plus, if I miss with four slugs, I deserve to get eaten.

[williejc]

My malfunctions occurred during duck or dove hunting using heavy loads. Careless procedure was the cause. Using a weak or neutral grip allowed the hesitation cycling described in numbers 1-3 of my first post. I thought that I was pumping as soon as I fired but still ended up with an empty chamber. I'm not a professional in any sense of the word; therefore, I am not qualified to offer training advice. A an old school skeet/trap/duck hunter did show me how to eliminate or prevent the malfunction without consciously pushing forward. Following his advice, I do this: I place my index finger along the side of the fore end. With my gun, the finger ends up pointing in a 40 ish degree angle and fits into the groove on the fore end. This arrangement lets me pump fast as hell and never have the unwanted empty chamber. Why? Because it allows that split second to pass when recoil might cause a weak grip to open the action and thus start the 1-3 sequence above. I use the technique on all pump guns. The finger in the groove part is not necessary but occurs with my Wingmaster. This method may or may not be suitable to teach in classes with large numbers of students. Whenever I shot buckshot or slugs over the years I made an effort to use a strong grip. The problem sneaked up on me during hunting when I switched from a 30 inch barrel to a light contour 26 inch barrel, which was much lighter.

Obviously millions of shooters have spent a lifetime shooting 870 12 gauges and never had a malfunction. The intention of the post is to show that many 870 malfunctions are not short shucks. Understanding this fact can help others be aware that their grip must not be weak or neutral when shooting buckshot/slugs/other magnum shells. If the shooter does end up with an empty chamber after pumping, then the most probable cause is 1-3 explained in the original post.

Has anyone noticed the similarity of the 1-3 malfunction to the cruiser ready position in the 870?

[Joe Mamma]

I would also like to add one further point. I have seen a few "short strokes" over the years, but certainly, as the OP pointed out, far less than are actually attributed to a short stroke. But if its an 870 made in the last 15 years, and if it has a magazine extension, add to the possible problems that a shell got momentarily delayed in the tube.

I have found (again through extensive testing) that it is almost always a very fast shooter combined with a shell that gets momentarily stuck at the two-piece magazine joint. In all the years I have been training, I have never found a solution to this problem. I have tried every follower, spring and tube on the market, and none of them have worked, especially on anything built on an Express shotgun line.

The only thing is, 99% of all shotgun shooters would never experience this, simply because very few people can actually pump the action this fast. (I am talking those people who can achieve split times of .22 to .25 seconds, shot-to-shot, on an 870.)

A shell momentarily slowed down when it reaches the joint of a two-piece tube has similar symptoms of a short stroke, and EXACTLY the same symptoms as the situation related by williejc.

Some 3 gun competition shooters who use Remington 870 shotguns are aware of these problems, and here is the fix. It's a modified action bar to change the timing when you pump it. It works.

Rem 870 Action Bar Modi.jpg

Joe Mamma

[williejc]

Joe, thank you for this information. I have wondered when some wise person would develop a fix, and this it. Simple too!

[26 Inf]

We just sent 8 Remington 870's to surplus solely because of broken ejectors. When I went through armorer's training they lightly touched on this repair but recommended we send the shotgun in to Remington for repair. When I talked with Remington several months ago they wanted the entire shotgun in to check it over before doing the ejector repair. I wasn't about to send them in to find that we would be charged for something close to a new shotgun at agency pricing from a law enforcement distributor. I ordered 5 new Police 870's and will order 5 more next week when I get back to work next week. I sure hated to do it because the shotguns could have continued in our training classes for years. We are talking about 100's of thousands of #4 buck out of these shotguns and they go down due to an ejector! Prior to this, the biggest problem we had was magazine latch bars coming unstaked which was an easy fix.

Two big things that they don't teach in the Armorer's course anymore are replacing action bar lock springs and the ejector. Pretty sure the ejector is because the Remington rivets stick up above the receiver and have to be milled, ground or filed level and then finished to match the receiver. I filed them using duck tape to mask as much as possible, then dumped on cold blue and covered them with sidesaddles.

I kind of understand as I would take one of my own 870's to a gunsmith to have it done in order to have it refinished correctly, but police firearms are a more utilitarian tool.

Many of the factory armorers courses have been dumbed down in the last decade or so. It used to be when you went to a manufacturer's armorer course you were taught by someone that had built the guns over a career in the factory, worked in warranty repair, and the custom shop. Now, you often get some retired military guy or retiree from one of their big agency customers who they taught to teach armorer's courses. After a while they memorize the lesson plan, but that is all they know, in many cases. Not all, but many.

[26 Inf]

Some 3 gun competition shooters who use Remington 870 shotguns are aware of these problems, and here is the fix. It's a modified action bar to change the timing when you pump it. It works.

Rem 870 Action Bar Modi.jpg

Joe Mamma

In your experience isn't this more of a problem with extended mag tube guns when they get down to less than half the tube?

I've timed guys who go low two's, even high ones on multiple target splits with 870's; on straight doubles they easily beat most semi's. Generally these are hunters or guys who have shot a lot of skeet with 870's. I don't ever recall having seen this malfunction on a standard tube 870 with a good spring.

[26 Inf]

Since we are rolling on 870's - does anyone know if the S&J Hardware safety will flip for left handed use? They say 'appreciated by left-handed shooters.' Is that just a function of the oversized button?

Thanks.