Short shuck your Rem 870?? No. Not really.

[williejc]

During a 1981 training program at the Texas prison, my 870 shotgun class was taught by armorers who trained at the Remington factory. From them I learned about a certain 870 operator error that few understand. Many call it short shucking. This term implies incomplete movement of the action to the rear and then pushing the action forward and hearing a click when pulling the trigger. Yes, the shooter had an empty chamber. But note. He can get an empty chamber when pulling with great force all the way back and then pushing or slamming with great force all the way forward. When having this malfunction, trainees are told that they short shucked. They did not. When hunters have this malfunction with 870s, they might say that they short shucked. They did not. My opinion is that 99.99% of what people call short shucking is a different error. The big clue is that in these instances the next in line shell never made its trip onto the follower. Why?

If the action moved rearward and activated the second shell latch to release the next shell, and this next shell didn't jump onto the follower, what happened? Answering this question will explain the malfunction, which has three events:

(1)In a fraction of a second at the instant of firing, recoil in some instances will propel the shooters hand on the fore end to jump back about 2 3/4 to 3 inches.

(2)As fore end moves rearward, action bars activate the 1st shell latch. It moves toward the mag tube's centerline.

(3)Recoil thrusts the gun backwards with enough force to allow the next in line shell to move forward in the tube. This shell had been held by the 2nd shell latch. But now the 1st shell latch in no. 2 above--having already been activated--catches and holds the shell. Thus, it is not now available to be placed on the follower. The shell had to move forward merely 1/8 inch from one latch to the other.

As the fore end is pumped to the rear to eject the empty and then move forward, it does so without a live shell. The next in line shell was not available, because it was "trapped" by the 1st latch. The shooter cycles the action, pulls the trigger, and click. High recoil loads like buckshot/slugs are a factor, but light weight as found in security 870s can be a another factor. In hunting versions I experienced the malfunction when using magnum loads and switching from a 30 inch heavy barrel to a 26 inch light contour barrel. I altered my grip to adapt. Several variables can interact to cause this type malfunction: improper grip technique on fore end, heavy recoil, and to a lesser extent the gun being lighter.

[Leaveammoforme]

Would a fresh magazine spring minimize the ammo bounce? Or, is this a possible issue inherit to 870's in general?

[williejc]

I've tried extremely strong uncut Wolff springs and had the same result. Yes, its inherent in 870s. Remington eliminated it in the 1100. Mossberg's design does not permit its occurring. The old Win Model 12 had included a part that caused a small split second hesitation to prevent it. The hesitation was completely unnoticeable. If you ever pick up a M 12 and try to cycle the action, after snapping it, you have to push forward before pulling back on the slide. I've tried many, many times to short shuck an 870 and never have been able to do it. You can screw up and not eject the empty by moving the action too slowly, but that's not short shucking.

[SeriousStudent]

I have a Winchester Model 12 that was made in 1928. You do have to push the slide forward just a scosch before you cycle it.

The three 870's I have will short stroke if I fail to fully cycle the slide. I've done it a couple of times on the range. It's also why a practice a LOT with my shotguns. You have to keep the reps up, just like dry practice with a pistol trigger.

And I always replace the magazine springs with a Wollff as soon as I get a shotgun.

I had a Mossberg 590A1, and got rid of it. It's a great shotgun for lefties, which is why I had it. But everyone I train with shotguns currently shoots right-handed.

I think a lot of people just don't realize how much maintenance a shotgun needs. And when they go down, they go down hard. As in, trip to a gunsmith hard.

[williejc]

Agreed. Notice that our commonly used l.e. and military shotguns have been sporting guns with shortened barrels. I think that one reason that they have held up is that they are seldom fired. In law enforcement agencies, wear and tear comes from some degree of neglect and from being knocked around. During the Vietnam War, Stevens sold the government a pump shotgun that had a reputation for being unreliable. They were discarded and another issued when they croaked. During the 1970s, Smith marketed a pump riot gun for l.e., which was based on the old Noble shotgun of previous decades. It too was a huge failure and embarrassment to S&W. The famous Ithaca 37 pump of military and law enforcement fame lacked a disconnect and would slam fire with careless use. The 37 could not be disassembled without first removing the stock and then removing receiver screws. How could a grunt or other GI have kept this weapon clean? So, the 870 and 590 series shotguns compare favorably to some others that have been issued.

Our shotguns--designed to shoot at birds, ducks, rabbits, squirrels and deer--are most certainly not robust weapons. As you stated, they will go down fast. All in all the 870 and 590 series are good but not indestructible or unbreakable as some in the past have claimed.

[SeriousStudent]

...... All in all the 870 and 590 series are good but not indestructible or unbreakable as some in the past have claimed.

Which is why I own five shotguns.

[26 Inf]

Our shotguns--designed to shoot at birds, ducks, rabbits, squirrels and deer--are most certainly not robust weapons. As you stated, they will go down fast. All in all the 870 and 590 series are good but not indestructible or unbreakable as some in the past have claimed.

I don't want to disagree, but define 'go down fast.' The picture below is one from a tutoral I made on replacing the ejector and ejector spring on an 870 before I retired. Remington no longer teaches this in their armorer courses and I wanted to make sure the guy taking over shotguns knew how to do it.

Attachment 43252

By serial number the receiver was made between 1978 and 1983. In the 36 years we had this shotgun, I would estimate it fired well over 45,000 roads based on how our shotgun training progressed. I was replacing the original ejector, not sure about the spring because we can often use the same rivet. Look at the wear in the receiver where the action bar rides, those edges are sharp.

This is one of about 2 dozen Remington 870's we use for shotgun training. 870's in general are durable shotguns. A home defense user, or a hunter, will probably never have to replace the things that I was replacing on our high-mileage shotguns, in particular action bar lock springs and action bars.

Unbreakable, no. Durable, yes.

[26 Inf]

One mistake a lot of people make in runiing pump action shotguns is that they either pull back with on the forearm, or maintain a kind of neutral hold.

The malfunction you described can be prevented by pulling into the shoulder and pushing forward on the forearm. This prevents the hesitation cycling you described and also serves to dampen recoil to the shoulder.

This is especially important to 870's if you are pulling back on the forearm, you are actually pulling the action bar against the action bar lock in the trigger plate. This action doesn't allow the lock to automatically disengage as the hammer fall resulting in a hesitation or jerky cycling action.

[davidz71]

We just sent 8 Remington 870's to surplus solely because of broken ejectors. When I went through armorer's training they lightly touched on this repair but recommended we send the shotgun in to Remington for repair. When I talked with Remington several months ago they wanted the entire shotgun in to check it over before doing the ejector repair. I wasn't about to send them in to find that we would be charged for something close to a new shotgun at agency pricing from a law enforcement distributor. I ordered 5 new Police 870's and will order 5 more next week when I get back to work next week. I sure hated to do it because the shotguns could have continued in our training classes for years. We are talking about 100's of thousands of #4 buck out of these shotguns and they go down due to an ejector! Prior to this, the biggest problem we had was magazine latch bars coming unstaked which was an easy fix.

[williejc]

26 Inf, you are indeed correct that 870s are durable as are the 590 series. About the "go down fast" phrase", rereading my post I see it as a general statement meaning that if not maintained, then problems will occur and the guns will cease functioning. Of course, this concept applies to all equipment and unless a specific item is specified and explanation given, it has little merit. That part of my statement lacked merit. Your experience with shotguns is extensive from a professional standpoint. My experience is 99% hobbyist. I had hoped that you would respond.