Loading to capacity: lots of bad info out there. My goodness.

[masakari]

I'm having a discussion in a law enforcement group about filling magazines to capacity, and unfortunately, many of them are advocating downloading magazines to as low as 26 rounds.
Uggh.
Anyone have any links or videos from reputable sources to try and dispel this myth? We all know that 30 round magazines deserve 30 rounds.
Thanks

[T2C]

Have any of the other LEO involved in the discussion given a reason for downloading? Is this something they learned in training or through outside sources?

[PatrolRifleGroup]

I have taught and been involved with our department's patrol rifle program for 18 years. We still currently have a policy stating that 30 round magazines will only be loaded to 28 and 20 round magazines will only be loaded to 18. I honestly see the policy as a throwback to the use of older aluminum magazines. They were more easily overfilled, and in the past we've seen that when filled to capacity, you (could*) periodically get feeding issues. I think it would be a hard fought battle at this point to get the policy changed, because it serves to protect the lowest common denominator of officer. You know the type I'm talking about: rifle that hasn't been cleaned since last year's training, only shoots once a year, still carrying the junky magazines that they bought back in 90's. I personally only run either PMAGs or updated USGI magazines, fill to capacity in training or on the street, and have zero issues. However, I'm also an instructor who trains and teaches regularly and is well versed with my equipment. I always put the decision on how to fill magazines back on the officers. If a person is proficient, carries quality equipment, and wants to fill to capacity, then do so.

[TimeOnTarget]

At the risk of exposing my own ignorance, downloading by 2 just makes it easier to insert a new magazine while the bolt is still forward. It lessons the chance of failing to seat the mag and having it fall out on the ground.

People have a tendency to not understand the original context of an issue, and this then becomes urban legend, which takes on a life of itself, producing years of interweb entertainment.

[26 Inf]

Have any of the other LEO involved in the discussion given a reason for downloading? Is this something they learned in training or through outside sources?

What I tell folks:

Pros: Easier seating of magazine after admin checking loads in the unit at beginning of shift; easier, more positive seating of magazine during in-battery reloads.

Cons: You lose 1/15th of your magazine capacity and most officers do not carry additional AR mags.

Myths: Fully loading magazines causes the springs to take a set and not work reliably.

During training have them run fully loaded magazines so they can see if any problems arise during in-battery/retention reloads. I emphasize magazine seat and tug during reloads/clearances and discuss the fact that if they have to re-seat after a tug it is a failure which needs to be corrected. This enables them to make a fully informed decision as to 28 or 30 rounds.

Making sure reloads are conducted with fully loaded magazines the majority of the time will help them see if they have problems seating the magazine on bolt forward reloads. However, the reality is that because of time constraints, and the 'efficiency' of not topping off after every repetition this doesn't happen often enough during training.

I have seen enough FTF's occur because of improperly seated magazines when officers are under moderate stress, that in good conscious, when asked, I recommend 28 rounds.

The reality is that the average officer is not a gunfighter. Most agency programs will not bring them to that level unless they are in a specialized assignment. Therefore, training and policy should be geared to the common denominator.

JM .02

[556BlackRifle]

I was a deputy in the 80s and carried a revolver most of my time on duty. We could provide our own semi-auto pistol as long as it was on the approved list. Dept policy was to download by one. Some deputies (in boondocks) were issued Mini-14s and at that time they were 20 round mags downloaded by one to nineteen rounds. I believe that this policy had to do with first round nose down feeding issues. IMO it shouldn't be in place with current technology. Try the FBI. I don't know what their policy is but it might be a good source. They spend a shitload of money researching this kind of stuff.

[T2C]

Our agency trained people to download magazines by two rounds to prevent "reliability issues". It is in the printed material I still have, but there is no reference for a source.

When I ran recruits through training at our academy and conducted in service training for veteran officers, I have seen people have issues with inserting a magazine loaded to capacity with a closed bolt. A majority of the officers are not firearms people and things were kept as simple as possible.

We trained people to download by two rounds for years, but I haven't seen a specific reference made to written materials from current U.S. Army training, or training materials from any other branch of the service. If anyone can cite a written reference, it would be greatly appreciated.

[bamashooter]

At the risk of exposing my own ignorance, downloading by 2 just makes it easier to insert a new magazine while the bolt is still forward. It lessons the chance of failing to seat the mag and having it fall out on the ground.

People have a tendency to not understand the original context of an issue, and this then becomes urban legend, which takes on a life of itself, producing years of interweb entertainment.

When in Vietnam a combat/basic load for a 20-round M16 magazine was considered to be 18 rounds. 30 round magazines were few and far between in my little world. Even years later on promotion boards, etc, the correct answer to "What's the basic load for a 20-round magazine?" was 18 rounds. Believe it had to do with the seating problems of the magazines. It may be myth-like now but wasn't then.

[Firefly]

I downloaded my duty pistol mags just so it would be easier to reload in battery.

I was an odd duck for a while and toted an M14. I kept it topped off and only had like 3 magazines for it. Once I got an AR, I just used ish GIs for classes and bought pmags which I never downloaded and kept the Colt 20 (which I kept topped as well w/ rifle in Cond. 3 or "Patrol Ready")

In qual, classes, etc....I've never been instructed to load to full capacity. As in never told to have 30 rounds after 30 rounds on most course of fire.

No qual has ever gone beyond 100m nor 60 rounds.

I think a lot of this is dept instructors repeating their predecessors. A DLed mag can be easier to reload in battery (which is why I did it for my G21, two less rounds in my reload mags wouldn't make a difference either way. Plus my main mag was topped off.), but the newer rifle magazines are usually true 30s. So you shouldn't be fighting with your rifle if you just put in 30 vs 31 or 32.

Most folks use pmags now so why people quarrel over it, I don't know.

[tehpwnag3]

For you guys who downloaded, by policy or by choice, did you keep the holstered (or trunked) weapon full (mag+chamber)?