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Thread: 17 MOST IMPORTANT GUNFIGHT STATS: BACKED BY DATA AND REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE

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    17 MOST IMPORTANT GUNFIGHT STATS: BACKED BY DATA AND REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE

    Hey folks I put this article together as a training aid for my concealed carry and for my duty gun. Personally I've felt for a long time that our weapons training really didn't mirror the realities of a gun fight. I've included some good stats as well as their sources. At the end there are also some training recommendations and resources. Here is the full text of the article. If you want to see all the photos and videos you can at this link.

    I'm also interested in good discussion. Let me know if you all have some different experiences or disagree with these stats.

    Gunfights are awesome to watch on TV. The good guy wins, and bad guys go flying through the air in a spray of blood. Unfortunately, these types of images we see on the silver screen rarely have much in common with reality. This can lead us as armed professionals, and concerned citizens, to make some critical errors if we ever find ourselves on a two way range. Keep reading to discover the 17 most important gunfight statistics backed by data and real world experience.

    This article will break down a wide variety of statistics by topic, in the hopes that we can clarify some persistent errors in our thinking. The first area we are going to cover is the likelihood an armed person will even be in a gunfight.



    1. Each year there are roughly 300-400 police officers that fire their weapons at a threat (source)

    2. In an Officer’s career, there is a 12% chance that they will fire their weapon (source)

    3. In 2012 the Violence Policy Center counted 259 justifiable homicides, where citizens defended themselves and killed their attacker. (source)

    4. National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that about 67,740 times a year a crime is stopped by the presence of a firearm. (source)

    5. In 2012, there were 1.2 million violent crimes, defined as murder, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault which would justify the use of a firearm (source)

    6. When you divide stat 5 by stat 4 you see that about 5% of violent crimes are stopped by the presence of a weapon.

    WHAT THIS MEANS

    I like to first point out the numbers of police officers that are involved in shootings annually, which is incredibly low, considering the amount of police contact with the public. This is also important to note because a police officer’s sworn duties put them in dangerous volatile situations, where use of force is more common than would be the norm for your average citizen. From these stats, we can infer that a police officer is roughly twice as likely to use their firearms as the average citizen.

    Next, it’s important to understand that firearms realistically stop a very low amount of crimes, and are present in the commission of many more. For example, in statistic 3 we see that there were 259 cases of a civilians defending themselves, and killing their attacker. In that same year there were over 8300 cases of homicide, where a firearm was used.

    Now, I know some people might think that I’m anti gun because of these stats. Nothing could be further from the truth. Facts are facts. A non criminal is much more likely to be killed by a firearm than they are to kill with one. That does not mean that we should not be ready and well trained to use them, because as we saw in stat 4 they were key in stopping over 67,000 criminal acts.

    https://youtu.be/6_W2w0oBwb8

    STATISTICS FROM THE HOLSTER

    This section will cover some key data on deciding to pull a gun, including just how long that might take.

    7. The average time for a police officer to mentally justify using their weapons was .21 sec for a simple scenario, .87sec for a complex one. (source)

    8. The average time it takes for someone to draw from a level 1, friction retention holster, is 1.71 sec

    9. World Class shooters can draw and fire from a level 1 holster in .76 sec in this case Jerry Miculek





    WHAT THIS MEANS

    We can see that there is huge room for improvement in our ability to draw our weapon from a holster. Obviously level 1 holsters are the quickest, and more secure holsters i.e level 3 holsters, will take longer, as will drawing from concealment. From the stats above it looks like we can expect that a proficient shooter can draw and fire a weapon in about 1.5 seconds, including the decision to use deadly force.

    This means that we need to create at least this much time and distance to employ our weapons once we are in a situations that warrants it. Check out this video for an excellent demonstration of the utility in creating time and space.



    If you like this article and you want to get more like it emailed directly to you, go ahead and put your email in the box on the right. If you don’t, I’ll just assume your an ISIS sympathizer. Welcome to the Tier Three Team.

    KEY DISTANCES AND TIMES

    These stats will cover what we need to know about common distances, and times of occurrence in gunfights.

    10. The deadliest distances for police gunfights is 3-6 feet. (Source)

    11. Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. (Source)

    12. About 60% of police shootings occur during hours of darkness (Source)

    WHAT THIS MEANS

    Often times we assume that skill will make all the difference in deadly force encounters. This is true, but only at extended distances, where it is truly difficult to hit your target. If you read the source for stat 11, you will see that even shooters that have never touched a gun before can accurately point shoot a weapon at distances of less than 15 feet. Alarmingly, they are more likely to hit the head because that is where their vision natural goes; where as trained personnel fire center of mass most of time.

    Even if you look as badass as these dudes, you’re still in a shit sandwhich if you are in a 3 ft gunfight because it requires very little skill to be very deadly. So we need some method to create time and distance to enhance our survivability.

    TAP
    SHOOTING AND MOVING

    This section will cover the stats relating to the rounds fired, movements, and other important factors.

    13. If you stand still in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso. (Source)

    14. If you move and shoot you have a 47% chance of being hit, with 11% chance of a torso shot. (Source)

    15. Seeking cover and returning fire reduces your chance of being shot to 26% with a 6% torso hit rate. (Source)

    16. The most common caliber to be shot with is 9mm (Source)

    17. Most gunfights average 3.59 rounds per incident (Source)

    WHAT THIS MEANS

    The vast majority of our firearms practice is flat footed on the range. While this is a necessary part of practicing fundamentals, it will surely get us killed if we fight this way. If at all possible you need to seek cover in a gunfight, or at the very least you need to move and shoot.

    These skills are very advanced, and the vast majority of folks will need to master the simpler tasks of shooting first. I highly recommend seeking out force on force training with qualified instructors to practice these advanced concepts.



    RESOURCES YOU CAN USE.

    There are many good resources you can use to help you become a more proficient gunfighter. If you are trying to learn the fundamentals, I recommend checking out some of Rob Leatham’s videos on Youtube, as he very quickly breaks down what you need to focus on an what you don’t.

    I also think there is a lot of value in books, imagine that, a Marine reading. My favorite book on the subject of pistol fighting is, Stay in the Fight!!! A Warriors Guide to Combat Pistol. (affiliate link to Amazon). The author Kyle Lamb was a former Sgt Maj in the Army’s Delta Force, and he has a rocking beard, which is all the credibility I need.

    The book breaks down what exactly you need to look for in a pistol, accessories, and how to employ it from the basics, to the most advanced principles. If you are more into long gun shooting (Amazon affiliate link), he has an excellent version for that as well.

    TAP
    SUMMARY

    These stats are interesting in and of themselves, but that’s not really what you should take away from this article. You should keep in mind how these facts might affect your future safety. Likewise, you need to be honest with yourself and ask if the type of training you are currently doing actually mirrors the conditions you are likely to encounter in the real world. If you are a 25yd bullseye master, but you’ve never shot on the move, you are in for a rude awakening. If self defense is your goal, then you need to train realistically, and you need to work on things you suck at.
    Last edited by jjackson@tierthreetac; 03-02-17 at 10:19.
    Crossfit Level 1 Coach, Former Marine Officer, Current Police Officer

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjackson@tierthreetac View Post
    10. The deadliest distances for police gunfights is 3-6 feet. (Source)
    I don't think your source does not show that these were gunfights, but merely instances where LEOs were killed by gunfire; the question becomes, how many of these instances were ambushes, where the LEO had no chance to return fire at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjackson@tierthreetac View Post
    11. Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. (Source)
    According to your study, one was classified as an expert if one had "completed law enforcement firearms course". I would argue that completing such training does not make one an expert shooter at all, as it is my understanding that most LE firearms training is not particularly rigorous, and often caters to the lowest denominator. Beyond that, the testing protocol was not under stress, but a flat range with no time constraints.
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

    老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。

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    One pull I see is 3.59 rounds per gunfight. Used to be 2 and change, but that was back when .357 Magnum revolvers were the police gun of choice. It could be said that this increase is as likely due to high capacity handguns and de-emphasis on good old fashioned basic Marksmanship as due to the anemic 9mm caliber. As Elmer Keith said, 'If you have to shoot more than once, you're not using enough gun.'

    Takeaways:

    Have a gun that can quickly and reliably stop a fight.

    Have the skill set to accomplish this.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
    Last edited by plain old dave; 03-02-17 at 11:03.
    GySgt Thomas Sullivan
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    Sgt Carson Holmquist
    LS2(SW) Randall Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    I don't think your source does not show that these were gunfights, but merely instances where LEOs were killed by gunfire; the question becomes, how many of these instances were ambushes, where the LEO had no chance to return fire at all?

    According to your study, one was classified as an expert if one had "completed law enforcement firearms course". I would argue that completing such training does not make one an expert shooter at all, as it is my understanding that most LE firearms training is not particularly rigorous, and often caters to the lowest denominator. Beyond that, the testing protocol was not under stress, but a flat range with no time constraints.
    Regarding your first point I believe you are correct some of those were surely ambushes with no chance to fire back, but I think functionally they are the same thing. If the tables were turned and I happened to see someone robbing a place while on duty and I shoot him without him being able to return fire is that a gun fight. I'd say not in the traditional sense but its still an armed engagement.

    Regarding the second point, the term expert simply used to differentiate those with a fair amount of training from those without. To be honest with you my agencies pistol training was very good. Sure there is always room for improvement, but if I compare what I see on most civilian ranges with some recruits going through the range I would say they are definitely experts compared to your average shooter at that type of range. I do not mean to say that cops are great shots as many of them are not and I know civilians that are much better. Just going with some general observations there.
    Crossfit Level 1 Coach, Former Marine Officer, Current Police Officer

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    Quote Originally Posted by plain old dave View Post
    One pull I see is 3.59 rounds per gunfight. Used to be 2 and change, but that was back when .357 Magnum revolvers were the police gun of choice. It could be said that this increase is as likely due to high capacity handguns and de-emphasis on good old fashioned basic Marksmanship as due to the anemic 9mm caliber. As Elmer Keith said, 'If you have to shoot more than once, you're not using enough gun.'

    Takeaways:

    Have a gun that can quickly and reliably stop a fight.

    Have the skill set to accomplish this.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
    I don't even know what to say to this entire post.
    98% Sarcastic. 100% Overthinking things and making up reasons for buying a new firearm.

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    Thanks for the information! Interesting read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedWillis View Post
    I don't even know what to say to this entire post.
    Well, the wrong lessons have been drawn from the last several decades' worth of peace officer experience.

    "Firepower" has been redefined as "how many bullets you can put in the air as quickly as possible " instead of "ending an encounter involving deadly force as expeditiously as possible ".

    Who has more Firepower? The man with a polymer 9mm or 40 and 60+ shells on him that has to plan to shoot numerous times or the man with a .357 Magnum, 44 Special, or 45 Colt revolver and maybe 12 extra shells that can expect to deliver one or two shots and reasonably expect them to end any deadly force situation?

    The plain fact is that the switch to high capacity automatic handguns with less fight stopping power directly correlates with the increase in shells expended per gunfight.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
    GySgt Thomas Sullivan
    SSgt David Wyatt
    Sgt Carson Holmquist
    LS2(SW) Randall Smith
    LCPL Squire "Skip" Wells

    "These men are NOT victims."
    -CO, M/3/14, August 2015

    Always Chattanooga Strong.

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    Tag for layer and to compare against sources I have

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    Quote Originally Posted by plain old dave View Post
    Well, the wrong lessons have been drawn from the last several decades' worth of peace officer experience.

    "Firepower" has been redefined as "how many bullets you can put in the air as quickly as possible " instead of "ending an encounter involving deadly force as expeditiously as possible ".

    Who has more Firepower? The man with a polymer 9mm or 40 and 60+ shells on him that has to plan to shoot numerous times or the man with a .357 Magnum, 44 Special, or 45 Colt revolver and maybe 12 extra shells that can expect to deliver one or two shots and reasonably expect them to end any deadly force situation?

    The plain fact is that the switch to high capacity automatic handguns with less fight stopping power directly correlates with the increase in shells expended per gunfight.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
    Stopping power is a myth. No handgun is a guaranteed one shot kill every single time. There have been people that have survived 44 magnum rounds to the dome at point blank range. I agree with you on marksmanship skills though.
    98% Sarcastic. 100% Overthinking things and making up reasons for buying a new firearm.

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    True; there's no such thing as a guaranteed anything.

    BUT, IMO the lessons learned from the last 35 years of Peace Officer involved shootings have completely missed the point in replacing basic marksmanship skills and fight-stopping, decisive power with volume of fire.

    http://www.policemag.com/channel/pat...forcement.aspx

    Refer to the above link.

    In Miami, the agents would have had nowhere nearly the problem they did if they'd only had .357 Magnums in their Model 19s. Bill Jordan (not the Realtree one) intended the Combat Magnum to be shot in practice with .38 Specials and carried in the field with .357 Magnums. This poor penetration issue is what directly led to the Colt .38 Super and the Smith and Wesson .38-44 Heavy Duty back in the Depression. Peace officers "relearned" the lesson they learned back in the days of J. Edgar Hoover, and Frank Hamer: The 38 Special (and its virtual clone in the selfloader field the 9mm) is a fine target caliber, but lacks considerably in fight-ending power.

    Columbine speaks to the need for immediate and decisive fight-stopping response, which the 9mm isn't capable of and the 40 is marginal at best at.

    North Hollywood, basics, basics, basics. Train in the fundamentals; a .357 can be deadly out to several hundred yards. Ed McGivern, Major Wesson, and Elmer Keith demonstrated that in the Depression.

    Mumbai I simply don't see as controlling in any way here, but the precept of immediate and fight-stopping power that can only be delivered by a heavy-caliber revolver in the hands of a man trained in its use is still a valuable one, Team of terrorists, shoot the one that looks to be in charge and the others will take cover long enough for reinforcements to get there. Again, immediate and decisive response.

    Tactically, there is very little that can be done within 75-100 yards by a "police carbine" that can't be done by a heavy revolver. Is there place for modern so-called "practical" courses of fire? ABSOLUTELY; the defensive handgunner needs to be able to deliver immediate and decisive force on demand. BUT there's also place for the "obsolete" bullseye training too, the regulation 25 yard NRA target and an 8" gong (or man-sized silhouette) at 50 and 100 will do nicely. You have got to understand the basics before you move into advanced techniques.

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