Aimpoint T-1 POI shift?? (Green Eye Tactical Bans T1 RDS)

[kwelz]

So I saw this posted on FB today. A guy banning T-1s from his Courses due to Point of Impacts shifts. Apparently parallax related.

I have never heard of this issue before(or the training company for that matter) and thought I would ask the experts.

I do not make this decision lightly. I am not endorsed by any optics company, nor am I a product ambassador for any company. The Aimpoint T-1 did not exist when I was in Army Special Operations, so my first experience with them was as an instructor when they first started showing up in my courses over 3 years ago. The very first exposure I had to them was in the first Tactical Rifle course I taught. During the Tac Rifle course (which many think is more similar to precision rifle training, but I just call it fundamentals) I had a couple guys bring them. These students were excellent shooters and were easily laying sub-MOA groups at their zero distance, which was close to 50yds. During this training we will fire a 5-10 round group, focusing on fundamentals, then go downrange and analyze the group for possible fundamental errors, and then go back and fire another group throughout the day. However, when these shooters would fire consecutive groups, they would produce a significant Point of Impact (POI) shift. This shift was anywhere between ¼” and 2”. My immediate concern, of course, was to check the sight mount for loose mounts, barrel and muzzle treatment tightness, carbon buildup in the muzzle crown, ammo lot consistency, and a number of other factors. None of those possible errors were evident. After this issue persisted, I got down behind their rifle and sighted it towards a target. I immediately noticed that when positioning my head, the aiming dot moved. So, I grabbed a rifle vise, aimed it at the target and got completely behind the buttstock. I then carefully moved my head vertically up and down. The first student’s T-1 dot moved in a “C” that was significant enough at 50yds for the dot to leave the NRA 25yd bullseye at its apogee. I then checked the second student’s T-1 and his moved in a “U” pattern. Since then I have had many T-1’s turn up at courses. EVERY ONE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM. Referencing the aiming dot to the front sight post mitigated the POI shift to some extent, but it never eliminated it. This inconsistency makes precisely zeroing the T-1 and troubleshooting other fundamental errors very difficult. In most situations, I prefer students to see the problem themselves and arrive at my conclusions without just having them take my word for it. However, I feel at this point that students coming to my Rifle Fundamentals course with a T-1 means that they are not getting the full value of the training they are paying for. I know that many in the industry are emotionally attached to all things Aimpoint and will vehemently deny that this problem exists. Interestingly, this non-existent problem was fixed with the T-2, which does not have this issue. I think that many of these people deny the issue because they never do precision grouping work with their T-1 out to the distances we do in the Tac Rifle Fundamentals course. And before you say “red dots aren’t for precision grouping”, the T-2 (and other Aimponts), EoTech, MRO, and other optics have no issues with this process. So, sorry if this triggers you (not really)- but, it is what it is. Bring your T-1 to any other course you want (you’ll hate it at the Night Vision Operator course as well- but I’ll allow it there), but not the Tactical Rifle Fundamentals course. I highly recommend dumping the T-1 if you have one, and getting a T-2 if you are an Aimpoint fan. Maybe sell the T-1 to someone who thinks it is the greatest optic ever.

[Rayrevolver]

Not an expert but this jumped out from reading the above paragraph:

How can his students be "easily laying sub-MOA groups at their zero distance, which was close to 50yds." And then say "This inconsistency makes precisely zeroing the T-1 and troubleshooting other fundamental errors very difficult."

Either you can zero and shoot precise, or you can't. Once you start shooting the wacky positions on you side, under cars etc, are you really gonna wank about some shift of the students groups? What am I missing?

Not an Aimpoint or Micro fanboy, I don't even own one right now. Just a known limitation to this type of optic.

[Eurodriver]

I didn't realize 50 yards was "far"

Eric is a member here. I'd be curious to hear more about this

[GTF425]

Consistent head/eye/reticle placement is the problem here. Either you're doing it or not.

Parallax shift exists in all optics, because we can't defy the laws of physics. Make a storyboard target, learn how much your rifle+optic shifts with your load, and rock on.

I personally use my front sight as a parallax "reference" for this exact reason.

[GTF425]

I understand his statement is that the dots move in a random fashion compared to just opposing the direction of forced parallax.

But that just makes it all the better to demonstrate how crucial it is to be consistent and dispel the bullshit about red dots being parallax free because the sales brochure said so.

[Rayrevolver]

This is fake news and I have to assume thats why it irks me so much. I just went shooting in the yard so I decided to do a little test when I came back.

I have a vice in my basement, a broken 30 rd magazine, and my MRO topped SBR. On the opposite wall I have printed one of those targets with simulated 50, 100, 200, and 300 yard silhouettes. I had to look left handed, but directly behind and NTCH, the red dot was solid on the 50 yard head.

BUT I can get the MRO dot to move from a head shot, to a miss, and to the targets left shoulder. It does move in a backwards C-ish way as a lefty. I tried to get photos or video but it just didn't turn out.

So another thing wrong with this whole affair: The MRO has POI shift as well. I have another MRO on another upper but didn't bother.

Hopefully someone is bored with a Micro T-2 and can do the same thing. I have a feeling the POI will shift as well.

[GTF425]

Hopefully someone is bored with a Micro T-2 and can do the same thing. I have a feeling the POI will shift as well.

It does.

My testing for this is straight forward. I make two storyboard targets for my rifle...something I learned in a class with Pat Mac. It consists of 4 B-8 centers on an IPSC for each storyboard. On the one target: 1 B-8 is my control group with SD ammo (zeroed at 200y), another is with my "training" FMJ (at 200), another is to group POI at 100y, and the last is a group with the rifle canted 90 degrees at 100 to check where it groups.

The second storyboard is dedicated to parallax shift at zero distance. Align the dot with the target, but place the target in the extreme sides of the tube. Shoot 5 shot groups, compare POI to the control group on the previous storyboard.

Easy to do, let's the gun speak for itself. My T-2 shifts almost 4" at 200.

[kwelz]

Thanks guys. This is all kind of what I thought. However as always, I prefer to ask the opinions of people more knowledgeable than me.

[threeheadeddog]

I just looked it up and a 3-9x50 scope with a common 150 yard parallax setting has an extreme varation of 1.312 inches at 50 yards and 1.968 at 300 yards.

A 50mm obj scope with 100 yard parallax setting can be off as much as .984" at 50 yards and 3.938" at 300 yards.

A common 1-x scope with 24mm obj and 100 yard parallax setting(I think most are this but not sure as not many have it listed in specs) is off as much as .472" at 50 yards and 1.89"at 300 yards.

Just thought it was relevant.

[WS6]

So I saw this posted on FB today. A guy banning T-1s from his Courses due to Point of Impacts shifts. Apparently parallax related.

I have never heard of this issue before(or the training company for that matter) and thought I would ask the experts.

Seen it/experienced it.

VTAC Streetfighter was the course. Zero confirmation at 100 yards. I was 3" to the right, and I corrected with several clicks, and ended up 3" to the LEFT. NO WAY had I dialed that much correction. Kyle Lamb came over, told me to flip up the FSP, and use it to reference the dot for zeroing purposes, as it would remove the parallax. I thought it was odd advice...until I fired another group and it was dead-center where I wanted it, which was what I had ORIGINALLY dialed for. It was also a better group. And "boom"! Just like that, my understanding of the world grew just a little bit.

LAV has always preached to use the center 50% of the AP.

On his visit to the AP factory, AP confirmed his preaching was a good bit of advice to avoid issues.

So yes, AP's can have several inches of parallax at 100 yards, even zeroing from the prone. That is my personal hands-on truth.


The joy of the T2 is that there is several MOA POI shift of things viewed through it. If you zero your irons with the T2 in place, and then remove it, you get a diagonal POI shift of several MOA, or if you zero without the T2, and then place the T2 on the rifle, same story (in the opposite direction).


That said, I have also run a G33 behind a T2, and interestingly, NO MATTER what extreme the dot is placed in the peripheral of the G33 magnifier's window, via misalignment of the prism using the "zeroing knobs", the groups are smack on top of each other. Less than 1 MOA shift, if that at all. I personally could determine zero shift what-so-ever, but I will allow that it MIGHT BE as bad as 1MOA, as my testing is imperfect.


Aimpoints are very fickle creatures, once you actually get to know them.