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Thread: Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

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    Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

    Long read, but interesting on No Knock Warrants

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rugs.html?_r=0

    SOMERVILLE, Tex. — Joshua Aaron Hall had been a resident of the Burleson County Jail for about a week when he requested a meeting with Gene Hermes, the sheriff’s investigator who had locked him up for violating probation. The stocky lawman arrived in the featureless interview room on the morning of Dec. 13, 2013, placed his soda cup on the table and apologized for not getting there sooner. He asked in his gravelly drawl if they would be talking about Mr. Hall’s own case.

    “No,” said Mr. Hall, a methamphetamine user and petty criminal who was facing his most serious jail time. “I want to give you something else.”

    Mr. Hall reminded the investigator that they had spoken previously about the narcotics trade in the vast flatlands of central Texas. “Gene, you said you wanted to eradicate the problem,” Mr. Hall said. “And I’ve been thinking for the past couple of days that, you know, maybe I’m put in this position to help you do this.”

    “All right,” the investigator said.

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    I got some strong opinions about no knocks that I wont share beyond....

    Unless someone is potentially going to die; they are not worth it. If they flush their dope; oh well. It's still gone.

    A lot that can go wrong so it better be literally life or death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Unless someone is potentially going to die; they are not worth it. If they flush their dope; oh well. It's still gone.

    A lot that can go wrong so it better be literally life or death.

    Exactly.

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    I have to agree also.

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    About 25 (?) years ago the Portland OR PD did a drug raid (I believe a no-knock) and a cop was shot and killed. The shooter was promptly sent to the pen for forever and a day. A few years later a local defense attorney started digging, and lo and behold established that the narcotics unit was fabricating their affidavits for search warrants. As I recall the verdict was reversed and the shooter walked free. Needless to say it left a very bad taste in a lot of mouths.

    I occasionally got roped into helping on no-knocks, and personally I thought they were stupid as hell. Maybe if some psycho is holding a bunch of school kids hostage, okay. Otherwise, screw it.

    I got to know that defense attorney. Came the day when it looked like my own agency was liable to hang my ass out to dry, I contacted him just in case. It never came to that, but if it did I wanted the biggest, baddest defense on the planet.
    Mala striga deleta est. (The wicked witch is finished.)

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    Going off the op, what if it's the wrong house? Does whoever is responsible for going through the wrong door get charged?

    As said, short of life/death, it seems like a shit sandwich

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    As I've seen more and more cases of this over the years, I always question the tactic. As far back as David Koresh, I wondered why they didn't just pick him up when he was out on a run to the store.

    This is America. If someone busts down a door in the middle of the night, I would expect some shooting to take place. This being the case, I think that at least the "no-knock" portion should be done away with. How does a person asleep in their home know who is smashing down their door. As long as people know the police are doing these no-knock raids, criminals can simply do the same thing and yell out "POLICE!", as they smash their way in.

    I would rather see a few criminals flush their drugs and get away with it, than to risk police and innocent lives by continuing with this extremely dangerous policy. The vast majority of criminals are going to surrender peacefully when the cops knock on the door and there is a full SWAT team behind them. And if the risk is too great, keep the perp under surveillance and pick him up when he leaves the house. If he runs, send the dog(s). Ain't nobody going to outrun a malinois.
    "Literally EVERYTHING is in space, Morty." Grandpa Rick Sanchez

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Going off the op, what if it's the wrong house? Does whoever is responsible for going through the wrong door get charged?

    As said, short of life/death, it seems like a shit sandwich
    Look up Cory Maye. He shot and killed a cop on a no-knock on the wrong side of a duplex. They "found" a gram of weed (even though they went in the wrong residence) so he was sentenced to death. Eventually, after 10 years in prison and two retrials he signed a plea of manslaughter and was released. And no, if the cop shot the wrong person during a no-knock they don't (as a rule) get charged. You? Yes. Them? No.
    11C2P '83-'87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    I got some strong opinions about no knocks that I wont share beyond....
    Unless someone is potentially going to die; they are not worth it. If they flush their dope; oh well. It's still gone.
    A lot that can go wrong so it better be literally life or death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I occasionally got roped into helping on no-knocks, and personally I thought they were stupid as hell. Maybe if some psycho is holding a bunch of school kids hostage, okay. Otherwise, screw it.
    This, 100.000%. Of course the only reason these techniques were developed was for hostage rescue. Using them for basic warrant service is a perversion.

    Oh yeah, the flushed drugs / destroyed evidence argument. It's bullshit. Almost any location has times when no one is at home. Stake it out and wait for it to be empty. If you can't do that, figure out how to catch the "flushed evidence." Hint: you can tap a sewer line from a house and collect the contents without endangering anyone's life. And a million times easier if it's a septic system (because the evidence is staying on-site).

    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Going off the op, what if it's the wrong house? Does whoever is responsible for going through the wrong door get charged?
    They should, but I've never heard of one getting charged in those cases, even when innocent people died.

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    The risk of life destroying actions done to innocent people, or the officers, far outweigh the benefits in my mind.

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