Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

[Dist. Expert 26]

In all fairness, there are highly extenuating circumstances that would facilitate a no knock. It would have to be predicated on preservation of life (hostage, kidnapping) and would require a lot of rehearsal. Like a lot.

I would hope that everyone here can see the distinction between a search warrant and a kinetic situation like you referenced.

But I'm still not sure if Euro is trolling or not, so there's no telling.

[Firefly]

I would hope that everyone here can see the distinction between a search warrant and a kinetic situation like you referenced.

But I'm still not sure if Euro is trolling or not, so there's no telling.

Indeed.

I will not speak for Euro but I do not consider him trolling. It is a tool that can be abused like any other in the wrong hands but can at times of dire threat be quite necessary.

I infer that he posits that the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater and that any supervising officers take hard and long notice of the totality of the circumstance, necessity of action, alternarive methods, and take not just tactical, but strategic consideration before employing such methods

[Eurodriver]

If I was trolling I would say that I think Mogadishu style raids should definitely be used to against US Citizens for growing plants that blue Haired Bible thumpers and big pharma want illegal.

But, I'm not. An outright ban on no knocks is unreasonable, and all legitimate no knocks are signed off by judges.

[Dist. Expert 26]

You'll notice I never suggested a ban on such raids if the situation warrants such. My observation, supported by research, is that many departments are SWAT happy and employ tactical teams on cases where their expertise isn't truly required.

I guess where my confusion came in is the suggestion that I might be banned for expressing this opinion while others with the same ideas would not.

[DirectTo]

Add in the "let's roll the bearcat sniper team" aspect like the kid in Cherokee county, and it's sobering.

I was driving through extremely rural eastern NY/western MA Friday to airline home and passed two NYPD bearcats cruising down a road. What part of tax dollar wastage is going to that I wondered.

I believe every man and woman has the right to defend themselves, especially in their own home. You come busting in at o dark thirty doing nothing but yelling and throwing flash bangs, you shouldn't be surprised when someone starts firing back after they can't hear a thing but their ears ringing.

Criminals starting to bust in yelling "police" is an interesting point...matter of time until someone figures that out.

I think anyone would say it's one thing to kick someone's door down when there is a confirmed threat to life, but the whole idea of no knock raides because Billy and Susie like to smoke a bowl and listen to some Zeppelin has gotten to be absurd. These cases show how weak and tailored the 'evidence' is on a lot of these, and how there is basically no accountability for the cops involved. "Oops, we killed the wrong guy because he lived in apartment 5 and we wanted to level apartment 6."

[DirectTo]

... all legitimate no knocks are signed off by judges.

Like the ones mentioned before, where wording was carefully crafted, facts left out, and little bits added to make it more justifiable?

[docsherm]

No Knocks need to be 100% outlawed on US citizens. Period.

This needs to be illegal. There are already too many laws that harm the citizens of the US in order to "protect" the police.


If the situation is so dire that they need to conduct a no knock then 99% of the time they are not the ones that need to do the entry. It is just like the cool new MRAP they got and are just dieing to use......

Will this ever be made illegal? Hell no, the government is more interested in controlling the people rather then protecting them.


Shouldn't it be just like guns? If something bad happens one time then it should be banned, right?

[SteyrAUG]

I got some strong opinions about no knocks that I wont share beyond....

Unless someone is potentially going to die; they are not worth it. If they flush their dope; oh well. It's still gone.

A lot that can go wrong so it better be literally life or death.

That's where I'm at. Innocent people can get killed, including cops.

[Firefly]

If the situation is so dire that they need to conduct a no knock then 99% of the time they are not the ones that need to do the entry.

I see what you are saying, Doc. But you can't call in Rangers, SF, SEALs, etc to handle civilian, stateside criminal matters.

Even if you used FBI HRT; they are still civilian Law Enforcement.

Do I think the Oakley Bearcat crew needs to handle it? No.

In all things a continuum.

99.99% of no knocks are unnecessary, but that 0.01% keeps it in the pile.

Though I would argue if it is that bad then you don't really need a warrant due to the exigency of the situation.

But....

Lessay you got some guy who has kidnapped a boy. You have a very solid lead and there is a window between him going from catamite to cat food. You have a solid ID. You have the right house. You have all the pieces. Time is a factor. He leaves the house sparringly or has a partner. I'm talking John Wayne Gacy/Adam Walsh stuff here.

There is an opportunity to preserve life and announcing one's presence may shift the paradigm to where the victim is killed.

Very rare circumstance but not one where you want hands tied whether you send in local, state, or federal to execute it.

But again, I concur. As it stands, over abused, used by the underqualified, and should be much more unheard of than it is.

But that 0.01% nags at me too much.

JMHO

Warrants are dangerous enough even with uniforms and announced so why people want to make it more dangerous by trying to be sneaky pete confounds me.

No matter how you do it, it is dangerous anyways. And you better know what you are doing.

I would...as much as I hate to admit...rather people have that unspoken understanding of "good faith". Oh well. Dope gets flushed. They picking me up on a warrant. I'll get out anyway.

Because I have yet to go in a house or project that didn't have kids, women, or elderly in it.

But now we are broaching my little comfort zone and I got my hang ups and poor experiences

But I am with you

[GH41]

Don't commit crimes and you won't get shot by the police in the middle of the night.

Don't execute no knock warrants in the middle of the night and cops won't get shot in the middle of the night. Neither will small children or family pets. LEO doing a no knock warrant are no different than any other home invader in my opinion! Defend yourself and hope the court is fair. The problem is.. The courts are not always fair. Black suits with police on the back give you more cred in court than some poor bastard that lives in the duplex next door the meth lab. I loved and respected law enforcement for many years but the longer I live the less I do.