Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

[Honu]

no knocks are a bit like police stops ! not needed and pushed most likely by the political level of the force more than the working guy who carries things out

anyones signature on either of these things need to be held accountable

[Honu]

I'm taking issue with the attempted parallel between guns and no knocks. One is an individuals' right and the other is not.

ditto not even the same thing at all

[Moose-Knuckle]

Ya this will get locked up soon...

So before that happens I want to get my experience into the mix.


I was on the receiving end of a no-knock...

They got the wrong house tried to trump up charges, and even tried to do some "this looks like drugs" stuff. I was held at gun point, thrown to the ground etc...

My home at the time was totally wired with hidden cameras and Battery backup at the time. I also do an annual lifestyle poly...

The DA found out about my background knew they did not have a case and tried to force me to sign a plea to drop charges that would also state nothing was their fault.

I rejected it, went to court go the case thrown. Then sued, and got a nice settlement.

No Knocks have NO place with local law enforcement, I can see federal needing it. But locals using it is ****ing stupid.

Thanks for sharing your ordeal, glad you lived to tell about it.

Another reason to have a quality and concealed home surveillance system in play.

[Eurodriver]

I do not bite my thumb at you sir but I do bite my thumb.

[glocktogo]

Respectfully, I'm looking for LEOs who know of agencies that currently allow NKWs for simple drug busts without concern for weapons or officer safety. I'm not looking for what happened in the past, examples of officers violating their department policy, or officers misrepresenting information on warrants. A simple listing of the agencies is sufficient.

I'm also interested in hearing from forum members who have personal experience with this issue.

I'm asking this because I'm not aware of any LE organization that currently allows NKW for simple drug busts, and I have no family members, friends, or close associates who have been touched by this problem. However, I want to keep an open mind.

You might want to open that up to include dynamic knock warrants. A 3am going Bang, Bang, Bang "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" Ram, Flash Bangs and all that might as well be a no-knock. No reasonable person is going to rouse from REM sleep, get out of bed, put on at least a bit of modesty wear and get to the front door to unlock it in time. No one. Everyone knows this so I’m not sure why the line for a knock warrant isn’t drawn at a more reasonable standard.

I have served on a SWAT team in the USA, and in an anti terrorist unit in Israel.

I am 100% against no knock warrants in the USA except for hostage rescue.

I do not like the militarization of the police in the USA. I do not like flash bangs being thrown into houses with small children inside them.

I don't like the balls to the walls way, that houses are raided today.

In Israel with terrorist in a house and no innocent people, use LAW rockets no problem, used a D9 to bury the terrorist inside the house and then park the D9 on top of them, no problem.

But a drug dealer that has small kids in the house, I don't like seeing flash bangs introduced into every room without knowing who is in that room .

Criminals inside the USA have the same Constitutional rights as all of us here. If we allow the police to violate these rights based on a nebulous officer safety issue it bothers me.

I am very pro Police having buried 5 friends in the USA and a lot more than that in Israel including family members.

I had a lot of things typed until I read this post. This is the way it should be.

You see, the fact that something was not intentional doesn't usually allow things to be shrugged off by the rest of us non-LEO civilians. There is a thing called negligence which still carries criminal penalties.

In too many cases, criminal negligence doesn't apply to law enforcement actions. You can rely on an unreliable snitch for your information, overwrite the justification because you didn't do anything more than pencil whip it, put down the wrong address because you didn't verify it, do Godawful pre-raid "planning" and literally get an innocent victim killed, but still be immune from criminal prosecution. Qualified immunity may also negatively impact a righteous civil suit as well.

Dozer Destruction definitely happens in the USA. Dude had already killed a PD and wounded a USMS dude. Ain't got time for that.

Bought & paid for. A pot grow with kids in the house and no evidence of immediate threat of death or great bodily harm? No. Just... No...

Don't forget the Chris Dorner case where burners / pyrotechnics were used to kill a barricaded suspect and the Dallas shooter who was killed by a police made IED. I mean, talk about no knock...

Again, bought & paid for. I wouldn't care if police used an Apache helicopter with Hellfire missiles in those specific and incredibly narrow circumstances, so long as they don't incur collateral deaths or injuries. My AOR was the very first use of an armed robot to kill an armed and barricaded subject who was actively shooting at LE and citizens. They strapped an 870 to a bomb robot and capped his ass. Day before yesterday we had an officer kill a young woman who'd been running all over town shooting at people. She was in the act of shooting at other officers, so he pancaked her with his patrol car. Works for me as there was less chance of collateral damage by 4,000# cruiser, than bullets flying around in a populated area.


tl:dr, I don't think we should ban no-knock raids, but we should absolutely ban no-knock drug raids unless they're actively shoving lethal amounts of drugs down the throats of occupants. I think that would eliminate 99.99% of the bad raids. In too many cases with undesirable outcomes, the overwhelming drive to force the criminal's hand in a compressed time frame to get the conviction is a complicating factor. That applies well beyond warrant service. Some times it's just better to just slow things down and explore less violent options. JMO, YMMV

[yoni]

Law Enforcement in the USA has changed a lot in the last 40 years and somethings are not just right.

1. SWAT raids when their is no real need. No knock warrants in 99% of cases

2. Civil Asset Seizure as a way of raising money by both Fed and local agencies.

3. Militarization of the police I do not include the police rifle in this. Rather uniforms and attitudes.

I have fond memories of being a deputy and think we need to remember police are public servants, not the reverse.

[26 Inf]

Law Enforcement in the USA has changed a lot in the last 40 years and somethings are not just right.

1. SWAT raids when their is no real need. No knock warrants in 99% of cases

2. Civil Asset Seizure as a way of raising money by both Fed and local agencies.

3. Militarization of the police I do not include the police rifle in this. Rather uniforms and attitudes.

I have fond memories of being a deputy and think we need to remember police are public servants, not the reverse.

Yoni, I believe we have found some common ground here. Those are my thoughts exactly. Especially 'we need to remember police are public servants, not the reverse.'

[26 Inf]

. She was in the act of shooting at other officers, so he pancaked her with his patrol car. Works for me as there was less chance of collateral damage by 4,000# cruiser, than bullets flying around in a populated area.

Totally legitimate use of force. Glad the officer recognized that was probably the safest and quickest solution to the threat posed to the public.

[glocktogo]

Totally legitimate use of force. Glad the officer recognized that was probably the safest and quickest solution to the threat posed to the public.

Yeah, but it didn't stop the snowflakes from melting over it.

She was a white trash meth-mouth with a LONG history of disregard for public safety. She spent the better part of a week running around shooting at people randomly!

[Outlander Systems]

Everyone needs to chill dafuq out and read this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/m...l-swatter.html

Then come back, and les' talk.