Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

[26 Inf]

Yeah, but it didn't stop the snowflakes from melting over it.

She was a white trash meth-mouth with a LONG history of disregard for public safety. She spent the better part of a week running around shooting at people randomly!

To bad anyone has to die, but sounds like she brought it on. It is often very rough on the officer forced to take such action.

Years ago for NCIC hits our state troopers used to get a small decal to put on their units a la fighter pilot style. You should make up a pedestrian with a gun emblem for this guy's cruiser - that would throw gas on the fire for the special snowflakes.

Obviously, for the psychological well-being of the officer involved, don't do such a thing, but the thought of the snowflakes melting down is 'delish.'

[Sensei]

You might want to open that up to include dynamic knock warrants. A 3am going Bang, Bang, Bang "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" Ram, Flash Bangs and all that might as well be a no-knock. No reasonable person is going to rouse from REM sleep, get out of bed, put on at least a bit of modesty wear and get to the front door to unlock it in time. No one. Everyone knows this so I’m not sure why the line for a knock warrant isn’t drawn at a more reasonable standard.




I had a lot of things typed until I read this post. This is the way it should be.



In too many cases, criminal negligence doesn't apply to law enforcement actions. You can rely on an unreliable snitch for your information, overwrite the justification because you didn't do anything more than pencil whip it, put down the wrong address because you didn't verify it, do Godawful pre-raid "planning" and literally get an innocent victim killed, but still be immune from criminal prosecution. Qualified immunity may also negatively impact a righteous civil suit as well.



Bought & paid for. A pot grow with kids in the house and no evidence of immediate threat of death or great bodily harm? No. Just... No...



Again, bought & paid for. I wouldn't care if police used an Apache helicopter with Hellfire missiles in those specific and incredibly narrow circumstances, so long as they don't incur collateral deaths or injuries. My AOR was the very first use of an armed robot to kill an armed and barricaded subject who was actively shooting at LE and citizens. They strapped an 870 to a bomb robot and capped his ass. Day before yesterday we had an officer kill a young woman who'd been running all over town shooting at people. She was in the act of shooting at other officers, so he pancaked her with his patrol car. Works for me as there was less chance of collateral damage by 4,000# cruiser, than bullets flying around in a populated area.


tl:dr, I don't think we should ban no-knock raids, but we should absolutely ban no-knock drug raids unless they're actively shoving lethal amounts of drugs down the throats of occupants. I think that would eliminate 99.99% of the bad raids. In too many cases with undesirable outcomes, the overwhelming drive to force the criminal's hand in a compressed time frame to get the conviction is a complicating factor. That applies well beyond warrant service. Some times it's just better to just slow things down and explore less violent options. JMO, YMMV

Oh, I'm not complaining. Far from it. I applaud the ingenuity and would point to those examples as to part of the reason why our police have become "militarized." In other words, if you want to convince the police to be less militarized, first convince the criminals to stop using paramilitary and terrorists tactics such as IEDs, sniper ambushes on soft targets, etc.

I also agree that sharply curtailing drug raids would solve most of this problem (again, to the extent to which it exists). Having said that, I don't view a NKW served against ARMED felons who happen to be selling drugs to be a "drug raid." I call that an armed felon raid and the police are free to no knock the shit out of that as far as I'm concerned.

[26 Inf]

Everyone needs to chill dafuq out and read this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/m...l-swatter.html

Then come back, and les' talk.

If you are thinking what I'm thinking, we are freaking lucky that little escapade didn't end in tragedy.

[26 Inf]

Oh, I'm not complaining. Far from it. I applaud the ingenuity and would point to those examples as to part of the reason why our police have become "militarized." In other words, if you want to convince the police to be less militarized, first convince the criminals to stop using paramilitary and terrorists tactics such as IEDs, sniper ambushes on soft targets, etc.

What exactly are you referring to when you use the term 'militarized' as it applies to the police? Dress? Equipment? Tactics? Disciplined?

Yoni mentioned one of the problems in policing today - officers and agencies often don't remember, or never understood, the police are public servants, not the reverse.

Militarization plays right into that problem, it distances the police from the public. Other than wearing uniforms, and having firearms, good policing has far more similarity to COIN than it does to traditional military operations.

[Outlander Systems]

Absofreakinglutely.

If you are thinking what I'm thinking, we are freaking lucky that little escapade didn't end in tragedy.

[Sensei]

Long read, but interesting on No Knock Warrants

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rugs.html?_r=0

BTW, was I suppose to feel sorry for either defendant? Hmm, let's see...

1) First, Mr. Guy. This stupid oxygen thief is lucky that he escaped natural selection for so long. Now, this piece of shit might end with a black sack over his head and a paralyzing agent in his arm - oh well. The NYT would have you believe that he faces a needle because he is black. No, he is in a pickle due to a combination of his own choices, his own stupidity, and a broken system that should have locked him in a permanent cage years ago.

2) Now, on to Mr. Magee. This brain trust decided to sell pot out of his trailer home while keeping some guns. Now, that decision, however indirectly, has contributed to the death of a cop. If this douche didn't want to face 2-10 for possession of pot and guns, maybe, just maybe, he should have dropped one of the variables from the equation like most of America. Or, maybe he should have paid better attention to his scale since he was just a few ounces over the limit with a gun. Now, his lawyer is worried that his client will be punished for the officer's death. Ummm, yeah...

[Sensei]

What exactly are you referring to when you use the term 'militarized' as it applies to the police? Dress? Equipment? Tactics? Disciplined?

Yoni mentioned one of the problems in policing today - officers and agencies often don't remember, or never understood, the police are public servants, not the reverse.

Militarization plays right into that problem, it distances the police from the public. Other than wearing uniforms, and having firearms, good policing has far more similarity to COIN than it does to traditional military operations.

Equipment > Tactics >> Discipline >>>>> Dress

That is reflected in my mentioning the use of an IED and burners.

However, I'm sure that others have a different order so I'll defer to militarized in the general sense that has been used in this thread until your last post.

[Koshinn]

If you are thinking what I'm thinking, we are freaking lucky that little escapade didn't end in tragedy.

The problem is it wasn't a single escapade.

Everyone needs to chill dafuq out and read this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/m...l-swatter.html

Then come back, and les' talk.

I remember reading that article and I actually know a couple of people who were swat'd on Twitch. People who do that should be tried for attempted murder.

[OH58D]

You don't even have to be the subject of the warrant. On numerous occasions the parents of some felon (who has not lived at home for years) has had their house surrounded and door kicked in by US Marshals, with "reasonable" expectation that the folks are hiding the kid. Mom and Dad get ordered to the floor, or even cuffed and taken outside while the house is cleared. If the felon is not located, the house is ransacked looking for evidence that the said felon has been living there. It happens.

[26 Inf]

Equipment > Tactics >> Discipline >>>>> Dress

That is reflected in my mentioning the use of an IED and burners.

However, I'm sure that others have a different order so I'll defer to militarized in the general sense that has been used in this thread until your last post.

Thanks. That was the first I had recalled anyone using the word militarized other than perhaps articles that had been linked from Radley Balko and the CATO Institute. This statement "first convince the criminals to stop using paramilitary and terrorists tactics such as IEDs, sniper ambushes on soft targets" lead me to believe you were talking about the patrol function.