Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

[ABNAK]

The old saying about "When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" comes to mind.

There is no doubt that there are times when a paramilitary SWAT operation is called for. Some of the big events that gave rise to SWAT were the LAPD encounters with the SLA, the Charles Whitman/Texas Tower shootings, etc. They serve a purpose, no question about it.

That said, when you have a highly trained and armed group of adrenalin junkies sitting around waiting for the next Tsarnaev brothers shootout or Texas Tower incident, they get bored. Since they're "hammers", every warrant or bust begins to look like a "nail". It would be akin to having Delta (and believe me, I'm not remotely equating a SWAT team with Delta) doing missions regular infantry units should be doing. But there again, they get rusty and restless, so let's use them.

[26 Inf]

The old saying about "When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" comes to mind.

There is no doubt that there are times when a paramilitary SWAT operation is called for. Some of the big events that gave rise to SWAT were the LAPD encounters with the SLA, the Charles Whitman/Texas Tower shootings, etc. They serve a purpose, no question about it.

That said, when you have a highly trained and armed group of adrenalin junkies sitting around waiting for the next Tsarnaev brothers shootout or Texas Tower incident, they get bored. Since they're "hammers", every warrant or bust begins to look like a "nail". It would be akin to having Delta (and believe me, I'm not remotely equating a SWAT team with Delta) doing missions regular infantry units should be doing. But there again, they get rusty and restless, so let's use them.

That is a great way of putting it. The thing that also needs to be considered is that very few agencies have fulltime SWAT. So training is all over the place. Some agencies go two days a month, some agencies do quarterly, it runs the gamut. Unfortunately, at some agencies it is who you are buddies with and whether you buy the cool gear.

But the critical element is operational planning. Someone is in charge of the operation when these guys hit houses. IMO that is the first link when things end tragically.

[Outlander Systems]

Agreed.

The fact that "SWATing" could even be a thing is indicative of a need for us, as a society, to self-reflect.

The problem is it wasn't a single escapade.





I remember reading that article and I actually know a couple of people who were swat'd on Twitch. People who do that should be tried for attempted murder.

[SeriousStudent]

A friend of mine is a well-known security researcher. He's angered some evil people. He's also been SWAT'ed multiple times. The local authorities now have his residence "flagged" so they do not respond without simply calling first.

So yeah, that is very real, and it occurs.

[El Vaquero]

Didn't read the whole thread as it has gotten long, but Firefly hits the nail on the head in the earlier posts. I've done all types of warrants and entries and I only see the need for unannounced entry in hostage situations. The technique I prefer is arresting the bad guy as they are walking to their mailbox or getting out of their car at the grocery store. Its quick and fast and minimizes the risks and chances of errors. Then execute the search warrant.

Fear not though people (tongue in cheek, but slightly serious), many of the swat teams in my large metropolitan area have changed tactics and no longer are doing no knocks, especially those for dope (started changing a couple of years ago). Bottom line is its just not worth it. They have switched to surround and call out or just nab them on a traffic stop or outside, then execute the search warrant. As in any profession, it takes time to change old attitudes and opinions.

[yoni]

Other than the terrorist in Boston, where have criminals used IED in the USA?

[lt211]

There are other reasons that necessitate the use of a no knock warrant(not only terrorism related). One of many scenarios is that time is not on your side, you cant wait them out and grab them outside of thier premise. You need to grab them forthwith to stop a chain of events; armed / dangerous suspects that you hopefully get off guard in bed at 4-5 in the morning. But you need reliable intelligent information and a well executed plan.

[Firefly]

Other than the terrorist in Boston, where have criminals used IED in the USA?

Not trying to be snarky as this has been a far more intelligent thread than I thought would happen but:

The San Bernadino couple (albeit devices failed)
Unabomber
Olympic Park
Columbine (though devices failed)
Oklahoma City

There is precedent.

Honestly, a single guy with a gun has never bothered me as much as a guy with a knowledge of explosives.

[Averageman]

The Unabomber had the skill set and lived off of the grid for the most part. Had he a more "dedicated to mass evil" sort of mindset, I'm afraid of what he could have achieved.

[Digital_Damage]

Thanks for sharing your ordeal, glad you lived to tell about it.

Another reason to have a quality and concealed home surveillance system in play.

I never suspected I would be using the footage to fight with people that were suppose to be on "my side".

I was a new father and was on the road for long periods of time, so I had it installed to keep track of the family.

Every subsequent residence has a full set of cameras going forward.

It is getting harder and harder to maintain integrity with the footage.

I hear stories where the DVR's are seized during raids and the PD claims no footage exist. So I started using a system to store the video off site.

Then I hear of stories where local authorities are cutting communications at the same time they breach. So I started having to pay for a service that uses a dedicated dish connection to transmit it to an offsite location.

My life use to be so much simpler before the event... some trust has came back, but I will prob never fully trust the local PD and DA integrity. You start to feel more on your own.