Murder or Self-Defense if Officer Is Killed in Raid? (No-Knock Raid Thread)

[Eurodriver]

Ehhhhh

[pinzgauer]

Of course they need more oversight. It sounds like small Ma and Pa jurisdictions with poorly trained, part-time SWAT teams are a large part of the problem (to the extent that it exists). Interesting how those small, poorly trained jurisdictions are often at the heart of America's meth/narcotic problem.

Very much the problem area based on what I see. Though large metro areas are not immune.

Another common thread is the "Drug Task Force" approach. Which I'm not opposed to, but they can create motivation for aggressive pursuit techniques for penny-ante stuff. Clearly was a problem or at least motivating factor in two of the notable GA cases recently.

Like most rural areas, North & South GA has a growing Meth problem. Not an easy fix. And especially problematic the meth stuff drives other crime, very strong correlation with meth activity and B&E, etc.

And N Atlanta metro has a growing suburban Heroin problem. But that's a wealthier crowd, it's peaking in some very wealthy areas.

[lt211]

Sounds like your state has reasonable usage. I'd be curious as to what type of judge can approve them. And clearly that same standard is not being held in other states. GA and TX for sure do them for alleged drug dealing based on CI statements. Other states have as well, though some are reeling it in. GA is trying to do so.



Not at all hard to believe, I know it as fact. And appreciate the efforts.

But we should be able to express a concern about local implementation and interpretation without being viewed as anti-LEO.

Trust me, you would not want to defend some of the LEO work in the 3 cases I mentioned earlier. Some of the LEO are in jail (Kathryn Johnston case). In the Cornelia case the Drug Task force officer was indicted by the feds, ultimately cleared due to "no evidence it was intentional", but censured heavily about sloppy/minimal investigation. Even the defense attorney admitted the raid should not have been requested or approved. Both the officer and Magistrate resigned within days.

Over here 99% of the time its a District Court or a Superior Court Judge.

Yes, I sincerely agree we should all be able to express concerns about the actions of our law enforcement/government, I didn't mean it to come off that way. In this county the commanders have public forums monthly in the communities with the civic groups, associations and what not to discuss thier concerns.

[MountainRaven]

Of course they need more oversight. It sounds like small Ma and Pa jurisdictions with poorly trained, part-time SWAT teams are a large part of the problem (to the extent that it exists). Interesting how those small, poorly trained jurisdictions are often at the heart of America's meth/narcotic problem.

However, I'll give it a rest when the experts in this thread calling for a ban on NKWs come up with an alternative means to serving a warrant on violent felons without equally bad unintended consequences. I'll also give it a rest when someone finally cleans up the mess in post 30 where the entire profession gets judged by what someone THINKS is happening with an aspect of LE that is less than 1% of the job.

"This is the police: We have the building surrounded. Come out with your hands up!"

[Sensei]

"This is the police: We have the building surrounded. Come out with your hands up!"

....works great until you run into the Tsarnaev brothers or an apartment full of MS13 members facing decades of federal prison time. Point being, the proper use of NKW just might save lives.

[yoni]

I have served on a SWAT team in the USA, and in an anti terrorist unit in Israel.

I am 100% against no knock warrants in the USA except for hostage rescue.

I do not like the militarization of the police in the USA. I do not like flash bangs being thrown into houses with small children inside them.

I don't like the balls to the walls way, that houses are raided today.

In Israel with terrorist in a house and no innocent people, use LAW rockets no problem, used a D9 to bury the terrorist inside the house and then park the D9 on top of them, no problem.

But a drug dealer that has small kids in the house, I don't like seeing flash bangs introduced into every room without knowing who is in that room .

Criminals inside the USA have the same Constitutional rights as all of us here. If we allow the police to violate these rights based on a nebulous officer safety issue it bothers me.

I am very pro Police having buried 5 friends in the USA and a lot more than that in Israel including family members.

[ABNAK]

Sounds like your state has reasonable usage. I'd be curious as to what type of judge can approve them. And clearly that same standard is not being held in other states. GA and TX for sure do them for alleged drug dealing based on CI statements. Other states have as well, though some are reeling it in. GA is trying to do so.



Not at all hard to believe, I know it as fact. And appreciate the efforts.

But we should be able to express a concern about local implementation and interpretation without being viewed as anti-LEO.

Trust me, you would not want to defend some of the LEO work in the 3 cases I mentioned earlier. Some of the LEO are in jail (Kathryn Johnston case). In the Cornelia case the Drug Task force officer was indicted by the feds, ultimately cleared due to "no evidence it was intentional", but censured heavily about sloppy/minimal investigation. Even the defense attorney admitted the raid should not have been requested or approved. Both the officer and Magistrate resigned within days.

You see, the fact that something was not intentional doesn't usually allow things to be shrugged off by the rest of us non-LEO civilians. There is a thing called negligence which still carries criminal penalties.

[MountainRaven]

....works great until you run into the Tsarnaev brothers or an apartment full of MS13 members facing decades of federal prison time. Point being, the proper use of NKW just might save lives.

What happens, then? They start shooting?

Better to have the bad guys trading bullets with the good guys than to have good guys trading bullets with other good guys.

[Irish]

Quick question for you local LEOs. Do any of you work for (or know of) an agency that allows no knock warrants for anything less than officer safety such as a known violent suspect, known or suspected weapons and a concern they will be used against police, etc.?

I ask because I have a poor understanding of local LE procedures. Some are suggesting that preservation of evidence is a driving force behind the proliferation of these warrants. I've always throughly that officer safety was the impetus.

I don't know about procedure but it appears at first glance that NY law allows NKW on the basis of flushing. http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/criminal...ct-690-35.html

(b) A request that the search warrant authorize the executing police
officer to enter premises to be searched without giving notice of his
authority and purpose, upon the ground that there is reasonable cause to
believe that (i) the property sought may be easily and quickly destroyed
or disposed of, or (ii) the giving of such notice may endanger the life
or safety of the executing officer or another person, or (iii) in the
case of an application for a search warrant as defined in paragraph (b)
of subdivision two of section 690.05 for the purpose of searching for
and arresting a person who is the subject of a warrant for a felony, the
person sought is likely to commit another felony, or may endanger the
life or safety of the executing officer or another person.

[SteyrAUG]

....works great until you run into the Tsarnaev brothers or an apartment full of MS13 members facing decades of federal prison time. Point being, the proper use of NKW just might save lives.

I'm all for the SWAT / SLA resolution if people don't want to cooperate.