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Thread: forgotten M16 model

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassIIIGunsmith View Post
    so what is the barrel length on this because its can't be 20". A 605 with a suppressor should be reliable because of the back pressure from the suppressor. And what exactly is this model called because it can't be a M16A1 because that is a certain type that isn't this?
    They are 20" barrels. The way that the suppressors mounted gave the appearance of shorter barrels. The rifles in the pictures are standard M16A1s and XM16E1s. The only modifications/additions made to them are the suppressors and the optics. This does not change the model designation.

    The 605 were not used with suppressors as they were created to be carbines. Colt originally took 603 uppers, milled off the forward assist area and installed a 1/12 M16 barrel (20" cut down to 15"). They then used 604 uppers since they did not require any modification. When Colt cut down the 20" barrels to 15", they gave no consideration to back pressure and gas flow for proper cycling. They made no modification to the gas port size which resulted in a barrage of cycling issues. Additionally, with the FH just in front of the FSB, there was no space to even mount a suppressor.



    The suppressors at the time slid over the barrel and were easily attached. The rear collar has a bore just larger than the flare behind the flash hider of a typical M16 pencil barrel, about .010. That allows it to slip freely on the barrel after removing the flash hider. It has a notch on the bottom that engages the web on the top of the bayonet lug, keeping the suppressor from unscrewing after assembly. As the barrel is about .570 diameter in front of the sight base, there is room for gas to escape where it pushes back directly against the front of the front sight base, and not back into your face.

    The E4A had enough of a backpressure problem that it also was fitted with a sheet metal deflector that clipped on the charging handle to further stop gas blast to the shooter.
    "A Bad Day At The Range Is Better Than A Great Day Working"

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  2. #12
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    Ok makes since. We can lock this thread then.
    "Guns are tools; people are the real weapons!"
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  3. #13
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    Keep in mind folks that several of the oddball models seen in Vietnam era photos were actually creations for the spooks (CIA) and there is no telling what they actually created.

    I went to the war museum in Danang year before last and they had an M16A1 on display that had a bamboo hand guard. Although it was wired together it actually fit in the hand guard cap and with the delta ring. For all I know it might've worked quite well. Bamboo is considered a grass but it is also very insulating. Anyway, the specific weapon I am speaking of was left behind by ARVN troops when they fled south during the final north invasion of April 1975.

    All kinds of mods were done back then and if you see enough of the photos you'll realize there were some very creative military armorers back then.
    Never forget every word you spoke when you took your oath of office.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassIIIGunsmith View Post
    Ok makes since. We can lock this thread then.
    Honestly, it's good to ask these questions, even if you have some assumptions in error. Who cares? Renegade04 came along and provided some excellent answers to some great questions.

    There aren't that many people who even care about this stuff. I think the stuff you and Renegade04 post is great. One day I'm going to try and expand my retro collection and will want to know a lot of this stuff.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRA556 View Post
    Keep in mind folks that several of the oddball models seen in Vietnam era photos were actually creations for the spooks (CIA) and there is no telling what they actually created.

    I went to the war museum in Danang year before last and they had an M16A1 on display that had a bamboo hand guard. Although it was wired together it actually fit in the hand guard cap and with the delta ring. For all I know it might've worked quite well. Bamboo is considered a grass but it is also very insulating. Anyway, the specific weapon I am speaking of was left behind by ARVN troops when they fled south during the final north invasion of April 1975.

    All kinds of mods were done back then and if you see enough of the photos you'll realize there were some very creative military armorers back then.
    No kidding, for every rule, I've seen an exception. Dig these flattops sporting a scionics.

    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    No kidding, for every rule, I've seen an exception. Dig these flattops sporting a scionics.

    This particular M16 is the Model 656. There has been a couple guys on another forum that have built clones of these. They took some serious modification and milling of new parts to create the upper receiver and the FSB. The suppressor was mad by Sionics. The protrusion on the suppressor is a relief valve to adjust the backpressure.
    "A Bad Day At The Range Is Better Than A Great Day Working"

    USMC Force Recon 1978-1984
    US Air Force Res. 1995-2004 (Air Transportation)
    M16/AR15 shooter since 1978, gun collector and AR builder since 2004

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade04 View Post
    This particular M16 is the Model 656. There has been a couple guys on another forum that have built clones of these. They took some serious modification and milling of new parts to create the upper receiver and the FSB. The suppressor was mad by Sionics. The protrusion on the suppressor is a relief valve to adjust the backpressure.
    Renegade04 when is your book on the different models coming out and I want to be the first to buy it
    "Guns are tools; people are the real weapons!"
    - Anonymous
    "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
    - Albert Einstein
    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    - Robert Heinlein

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassIIIGunsmith View Post
    Renegade04 when is your book on the different models coming out and I want to be the first to buy it


    I wish. I am fortunate that I have some good resources that I can reference when I need to. It also helps that I have been into retros for several years now and have learned a lot of things. It most certainly helps me to learn about the various different models. This way, I can share with others when the situation arises. I will admit right away that I do not know everything and I do not even pretend to, but I do know quite a bit and what I am not sure of, I research it. There are a few good books available. A couple of them are The Black Rifle, M-16 Retrospective: The Modern US Military Small Arms Series Volume 3 and Vickers Guide AR-15 Volume 1. The original Black Rifle, M16 Retrospective came out in 1987. I wish I had known then about these books. Volume 3 is currently available.
    "A Bad Day At The Range Is Better Than A Great Day Working"

    USMC Force Recon 1978-1984
    US Air Force Res. 1995-2004 (Air Transportation)
    M16/AR15 shooter since 1978, gun collector and AR builder since 2004

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade04 View Post


    I wish. I am fortunate that I have some good resources that I can reference when I need to. It also helps that I have been into retros for several years now and have learned a lot of things. It most certainly helps me to learn about the various different models. This way, I can share with others when the situation arises. I will admit right away that I do not know everything and I do not even pretend to, but I do know quite a bit and what I am not sure of, I research it. There are a few good books available. A couple of them are The Black Rifle, M-16 Retrospective: The Modern US Military Small Arms Series Volume 3 and Vickers Guide AR-15 Volume 1. The original Black Rifle, M16 Retrospective came out in 1987. I wish I had known then about these books. Volume 3 is currently available.
    Don't forget "The Machine Gun Dealers Bible" by Dan Shea. Several chapters devoted to Colt rifles including the 656 and 703.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  10. #20
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    Looks to me like Special Forces Vietnam and one of the special creations for them. Most likely SEALS, MIKE Force, Rangers, etc.,
    Never forget every word you spoke when you took your oath of office.

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