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Thread: Any input on stance or anything else?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    I'll disagree on draw speed.

    If you want to be fast you have to train at speed. Speed is not something that suddenly develops if you practice a smooth and controlled draw for a set period of time.

    You will stumble and mess up getting there, but you need to dry fire against a difficult par time, let's say 1 second, and work toward reaching that goal.
    Sure, slow down once in a while to fine tune technique, but to get fast you need to develop your hand speed - having a difficult time to work against is the best method I have seen to date.

    Also, do not pull the trigger when using this method - many will race the trigger pull to make the par time and that throws the rest out the window. Draw, get a sight picture.

    I am pretty consistent drawing and getting a sight picture in 0,8 seconds at a 7 yard target.
    You did not understand what I meant, or maybe I'm not understanding what you meant.

    You build speed as your form improves. You need to be able to do the task correctly before you add speed. No one said anything about not training at speed, you need to have developed form to be consistent.

    I work off index points and know where I want to be at each stage of the draw.

    The thing that trips up some folks may be what you are alluding to, they don't push themselves to failure and then back off to last success as their new start point.

    Another thing is accepting less than optimal results in practice which just ingrains bad habits.

    EAT - Reference hand speed (since I just digested that part of your post) work it in stages and from different variables - start IPSC surrender to index touch, to hand PROPER retention release and PROPER hand placement on the weapon - user a timer to work to your par focus on driving the hand to the index touch, not just moving it; once you are making par move your start point - arm extended forward at shoulder height, arm extended forward as if opening a doorknob, etc.

    But for the complete product, first you need to have the optimal draw grooved.

    JMO YMMV
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 04-20-17 at 18:36.

  2. #52
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    When I said "don't rush to failure" I meant as a mindset, don't rush every draw to where you fail half the time.

    Pushing the limits must be done, but not consistently to the point you never get good repetition of proper movements. My procedure is to get a perfect, smooth draw, and repeat until I don't think about it, then speed up till the wheels fall off. Get consistent at that speed, then push it after I get comfortable.

    When people focus on speed and not form, they are not consistent in my experience.

    Edit: just saw arctic1 response below. I have not been able to make gains through that approach. Seems it depends on the person.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 04-21-17 at 09:05.

  3. #53
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    Wow, their is a great pile of info here. I really appreciate all of it, thank you guys.

    I worked on the draw a lot last night but was firing at the end of extension. When I draw, and right before my left gets to the grip, I keep the front sight elevated a little and lower it onto target at full extension. I have a tough time picking it up if I don't do this, and it feels quicker smoother this way, is that good, bad or indifferent?

    I did mag dump three mags into a dirt bank today. First shot of the first two mags, I really let the pistol get high and away, bad grip? Then once it settled back I was consistent and was tracking the front sight fairly easy. Waa also trying to work the trigger and let off just enough for it to reset. Just shooting those 24 rounds I can see how much I have to learn, but also feel like I've picked a few things up. So thanks again. I'll try to get back out this weekend.

    If I do, what and how should I video to see where I'm at and to try to track performance?

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubet View Post
    Wow, their is a great pile of info here. I really appreciate all of it, thank you guys.

    I worked on the draw a lot last night but was firing at the end of extension. When I draw, and right before my left gets to the grip, I keep the front sight elevated a little and lower it onto target at full extension. I have a tough time picking it up if I don't do this, and it feels quicker smoother this way, is that good, bad or indifferent?
    I don't use that technique, I know folks that do.

    When I hit my high index and the weapon rotates level to begin punching to the target, I want my bore indexed on target so I can shoot to full extension if need be.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 04-20-17 at 22:48.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    You did not understand what I meant, or maybe I'm not understanding what you meant.

    You build speed as your form improves. You need to be able to do the task correctly before you add speed. No one said anything about not training at speed, you need to have developed form to be consistent.

    I work off index points and know where I want to be at each stage of the draw.

    The thing that trips up some folks may be what you are alluding to, they don't push themselves to failure and then back off to last success as their new start point.

    Another thing is accepting less than optimal results in practice which just ingrains bad habits.

    EAT - Reference hand speed (since I just digested that part of your post) work it in stages and from different variables - start IPSC surrender to index touch, to hand PROPER retention release and PROPER hand placement on the weapon - user a timer to work to your par focus on driving the hand to the index touch, not just moving it; once you are making par move your start point - arm extended forward at shoulder height, arm extended forward as if opening a doorknob, etc.

    But for the complete product, first you need to have the optimal draw grooved.

    JMO YMMV
    I Understand what you meant, and this is what I disagree with:

    You build speed as your form improves. You need to be able to do the task correctly before you add speed
    That is just not true.

    Your form can be perfect at a slowish speed, and the wheels will fall off once you try to go faster.

    Your form will catch up even if you go at a faster speed than what you can do consistently. This is a proven method, and is in my experience much better than a "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mentality.

    As I said, you will stumble and mess up a few draws on your path to greater speed, but your form or technique will catch up.

    Also, too many people over-complicate the draw stroke. Mine is in two steps:

    Step 1: From whatever start position your hands are in, get a proper grip on your pistol with your firing hand, and your support hand moves towards the center of your body ready to mate up.
    Step 2: Draw, acquire grip and present to target

    During dryfire, these two can steps can be practiced as micro drills, with a 0,6 sec par time for each.

    Here is a video of me from a few months ago, just dry firing a 0,8 sec draw:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ326ZW1MhU

    I got there via pushing myself all the time, working against a 1 sec par time.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubet View Post
    Wow, their is a great pile of info here. I really appreciate all of it, thank you guys.

    I worked on the draw a lot last night but was firing at the end of extension. When I draw, and right before my left gets to the grip, I keep the front sight elevated a little and lower it onto target at full extension. I have a tough time picking it up if I don't do this, and it feels quicker smoother this way, is that good, bad or indifferent?

    I did mag dump three mags into a dirt bank today. First shot of the first two mags, I really let the pistol get high and away, bad grip? Then once it settled back I was consistent and was tracking the front sight fairly easy. Waa also trying to work the trigger and let off just enough for it to reset. Just shooting those 24 rounds I can see how much I have to learn, but also feel like I've picked a few things up. So thanks again. I'll try to get back out this weekend.

    If I do, what and how should I video to see where I'm at and to try to track performance?

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
    Don't "fish", as we call it.

    As you draw you should look at the spot on the target that you want to hit, and drive the gun to that spot.
    If your technique and stance is good, your natural point of aim should be good, and the sights should align on that spot.
    That is when you shift your focus to the top edge of the front sight post and break the shot.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ326ZW1MhU

    I got there via pushing myself all the time, working against a 1 sec par time.
    Apparently we are working towards different goals. My end goal is to be able to draw consistently regardless of body or hand position. Additionally, until recently I have always trained using police duty gear with retention engaged, so perhaps my experience is not relevant to yours. I've used a Raptor like the one below, rather than an open top, for over a decade, just now making the move to 'civvie' holsters.

    https://image.sportsmansguide.com/ad.../302372_ts.jpg

  8. #58
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    Retention or not doesn't matter.

    I use an ALS for duty, and the same speed is there.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  9. #59
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    I think it depends on where you are at in your shooting progression. A new shooter, imo, needs to go slow and get the movements down. Like grip, he needs to get the feel ingrained so it's no longer a thought. Once you are to the point you're not searching for the grip, finding the release, needing to correct the grip after the draw, milk the grip, and fiND your sights, then absolutely push the speed, but you need that foundation first. Then, yes once you start to fail, your form will get "caught up".

    But I think trying to go too fast without that background will lead to inconsistency and lost time in the draw. The early stages of going fast is efficiency and consistency. In other words, woring on those will produce faster time unIL you plateau. Once those are down, hand speed is all that's left to push, imo.

    Arctic, I think going fast, a shooter will eventually find the form, but in my experience, it was much faster and productive to segment the approach. It sounds like your experience was different.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 04-21-17 at 12:09.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    Retention or not doesn't matter.

    I use an ALS for duty, and the same speed is there.
    I was trying to be politically correct - when I said regardless of hand or body position I meant without my hand posed a la gunfighter.

    We just disagree and let's leave it at that, I appreciate your posts, honestly, I believe this is the first thing in which I can recall not agreeing wholeheartedly with you.

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