Any input on stance or anything else?

[JSantoro]

... people interviewed after surviving a shooting don't remember ever seeing their gun, just the bad guy.

This is a gross oversimplification. Insert the term "untrained people," and you start to get a more accurate picture of the interview sampling. In this idiom, we're dealing with folks who are *training* and deserve to be provided with better data than that.

Those who state that it's not possible to train to be able to use the sights are about equal parts 1) full of crap, and 2) selling their "training system," instead of being interested in training shooters to perform.

A person who trains to use his sights, really learns (doesn't game the game or go through the motions) had a high level of probability of using his sights when the time comes to do so. Even if he ends up losing enough of their mind to DESCEND to point-shooting, is likely to perform a highly accurate form of point-shooting.

A person who trains to do nothing but point-shoot...guh. The point-shooter can never rise past point-shooting, because they've been falsely told that that's the best they can ever do. Horseapples. That's precisely the sort of thing our membership refers to when "lowest common denominator" is brought up.

Our intent is encourage folks to strive to be greater than the lowest common denominator...not the least of which being because it's utterly possible to achieve. Those who say that's not possible are...well, we'll call it "incorrect," and leave it at that, just to avoid more name-calling than need be done. It's not only possible, but it's also a relatively easily acquired skill.

[ubet]

^^^^ That makes a lot of sense to me JSantoro. I'm trying to improve and it just doesn't seem to make sense not to use the sights. I remember a quote from somewhere, "you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

LAV said when I took his class, "the only thing that ends a gun fight is rounds on target." The whole class boiled down to one thing, accuracy.

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[PattonWasRight]

In a sudden encounter you're so flushed with adrenaline & focused on the threat, you're pretty physiologically unable to focus on your sights. If you have time & distance on your side, you do. It's important to train to do both.

But don't take my word for it.

https://www.usacarry.com/always-use-...ense-shooting/

Nice pretty groups are not = to being prepared for many SD situations.

Agree?

[Arctic1]

If you train on using your sights, you will do that under stress as well.
That is why we train, and try to reach unconscious competence, so that we are prepared and know what to do when shit happens.

Not using your sights in training, means that you will definitely not do it when shit goes down, and will set you up for failure.

If you read the actual study cited in the article you linked, it says the following:

Why are some shooters able to maintain visual-motor (eye-hand) accuracy despite high arousal, as seen during the BAR, leading to lower visual focusing control? There are various models to help explain this paradoxically confusing relationship of visually monitored marksmanship control during the BAR. The one consistent thread that is part of most explanations is professional, comprehensive firearms sports training, and knowing when and how to implement this training with confidence. Current neurobiological biofeedback research has clearly demonstrated that humans can be trained to control certain autonomic nervous system functions. This implies that with proper training, particularly under stressful conditions, a well established image of proper visual spatial alignment can be maintained as a consistent eye-hand-body-mind coordinate system. Shooters that can maintain sufficient and efficient eye-hand-body-mind coordination control and adequate visual attention during the BAR will be capable of accurate marksmanship during high combat stress. It is becoming increasingly evident that you can learn to “visualize” a visual image even without having direct accommodation (direct focus) on the object of regard. The ability to visualize and develop improved eye-hand-body-mind coordination skills can be trained using a variety of visual training techniques.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/G...d_shooting.htm

So, training works to counteract SNS effects. As stated above.

As far as accuracy goes, you should always strive for the best possible accuracy related to the target you are trying to engage. For most people, accuracy will suffer as speed increased. So, by building a good accuracy foundation first, you will draw a positive synergistic effect from that when you try to increase your speed.

An acceptable hit zone should always be the baseline, whether that is an IPSC A-zone or 8" circle is really not important. What is important is that it cannot be too generous, as that will lead to sloppyness and no accountability.

[PattonWasRight]

I agree with you, the more you train to use sights the more you will. In all cases? We can hope so. I guess where we'll have to agree to disagree is to not become dependent on sights for combat accuracy. I like to practice for the worse case scenario, so that means movement, multiple bad guys, point shooting, one-handed with left & right etc.

[Arctic1]

Combat Accuracy has to be the dumbest term ever invented......and it was probably invented by instructors who can't shoot, thus alleviating the need to "perform" in front of students.

What does it even mean?

Anyone with a slight understanding of 1) human physiology and 2) terminal ballistics will understand that shot placement is paramount when shooting someone - regardless of the situation it occurs in; self-defense, combat, OIS.

You need to hit your target, you need to hit your target in the proper area and you will most likely need to hit your targets with consecutive shots.

Training to use your sights, will significantly increase your odds of scoring hits on a bad guy - even if you are moving, if there are multiple bad guys, you are shooting SHO/WHO or whatever.

Using sights is a proven concept - it works.

Spending time point shooting in training is wasted time and ammo.

[GTF425]

If you don't have time to aim, you don't have time to miss.

Iron sights are not a design flaw.

[Eurodriver]

I just put lasers on all my guns. The red dot will scare away any one for sure.

Added bonus if it is on a shotgun and preceded by the racking of the slide.

EVERYONE knows what that sound is.

If you get to the point where you're aiming or using sites you've already lost.

[RobertTheTexan]

LAV said when I took his class, "the only thing that ends a gun fight is rounds on target." The whole class boiled down to one thing, accuracy.

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Which of his classes did you take? What was the duration?

Thanks


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[26 Inf]

I think it is important to understand a couple things about what is commonly referred to as the fight or flight response, stress response, or body alarm response: they all described the response of someone who is 1) emotionally or mentally unprepared for the situation; or 2) taken by surprise.

Jeff Cooper put it like this:

"You cannot solve a problem if you don't know you have it."

and

"…the shooter must train himself into a state of mind in which the sudden awareness of peril does not surprise him. It is essential for the man who wears a gun to react to a sudden threat with the knowledge and confidence he can handle it. His response should not be ‘Oh my God, I’m in a fight!’ but rather ‘I thought this might happen and I know what to do about it!"

Practice with your sights. Practice your presentation from the holster - the key to first shot accuracy from the holster is the press out. Likewise practice from the compressed ready. Practice moving. Use your sights.

Practice mental -commentary as you go about your daily tasks 'okay, cashier seems relaxed, two guys by the door, ahh, they made eye contact with me and, nodded and smiled, holding the door for me' 'have to go through a short alleyway, if someone enters from the other end I will...... ' It increases your alertness and your ability to rapidly plan. You won't get caught in a white-out.

Use your sights.