Any input on stance or anything else?

[Arctic1]

That's my "hands relaxed at sides" position. Where my hands are does not affect my draw technique.

I used to be of the same train of thought as you, but I saw much faster improvement in myself and other shooters by chasing the speed, so to speak.

But yes, there are different paths to the same goal - A way, not THE way.

[echo5whiskey]

26inf, I know you're LEO experience vastly overshadows mine, but I'd like to add another perspective here. I first learned to shoot pistols in the military--the basic, static, known distance type stuff. That's where I built up my stance and presentation, and there wasn't any type of drawing and firing (there was for the MPs, but that's a different beast). It wasn't until I took an NRA course that I first learned "the proper" draw. It seems much like what you're describing, in that one perfects each step before moving on. I tried it, but it was slow--I mean really slow. I stopped trying it. When I got to FLETC, my drills were being pushed almost to the time limit due to my draw. My instructor watched what I was doing, and told me to focus on getting my sights on target, instead of focusing on the draw. When I did that, I cut my times almost in half (or so it seemed since I didn't have a shot timer). He told me that my presentation was solid. My goal in drawing was to get the [crappy] pistol from the [unreliable retention] holster to presentation as fast as possible.

I say all that to say this; my theory is if stance and presentation are good, one can move the gun as fast as possible without really messing the draw up. Bringing sights to eye-level should be part of fundamental training as a beginner in the first place. Drawing is simply moving the gun to that position in an expedited manner. The only added "step" that I advocate is learning proper grip-placement prior to the draw. I was unfamiliar with those holsters and their retarded retention devices, so I practiced getting my grip until I was comfortable that I was doing it right.

[ubet]

My problem is getting a good solid sight picture on the extension, or one of my problems I think. And it's not the pistols, it's me. They're both balanced really well.

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[Arctic1]

My problem is getting a good solid sight picture on the extension, or one of my problems I think. And it's not the pistols, it's me. They're both balanced really well.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

As you draw you should look at the spot on the target that you want to hit, and drive the gun to that spot.
If your technique and stance is good, your natural point of aim should be good, and the sights should align on that spot.
That is when you shift your focus to the top edge of the front sight post and break the shot.

[Firefly]

I recall having to draw from the self limiting "Interview Position". I didnt think much of it. Realistically you are either creating distance or advancing upon the threat. Or you are drawing from a seated position.

Speed is nice but smoothness is nicer.

If someone else already has their gun out, you are likely going to get shot (or definitely shot at) anyway.

I like a relaxed hand at sides. If I really thought it was going to top off, I'd walk Clint style with palm on grip of gun

That's just me

[Arctic1]

Speed is nice but smoothness is nicer.

The two are not mutually exclusive though.

[Firefly]

The two are not mutually exclusive though.

I agree. In a perfect world, they are very complementary. But if I were forced to pick one, I'd take smoothness. Smooth isnt slow and speed isnt accurate and accurate isnt always smooth. (ETA Accurate isnt always fast. leaving typo as is.)

It is very much a balancing act, but its easier to make a smooth person fast than get a fast person to smooth out.

[ubet]

I have been practicing keeping a smooth draw and trying to be fast/ accurate. When I posted those last videos I was around 1.5 on the first shot at 7 yards. Today I went and ran a magazine. I was 1.2-1.3 between 8 draws, all hits on target where I waa aiming at 7 yards. My hands were in a surrender position. Trying to keep the sights even while punching out helped, but so did relaxing and all the dry fire. Thanks for all the help guys.

One thing I noticed was needing to get a better grip with my weak hand and get consistent with that. I definitely want to order the video that 26inf linked.

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[Arctic1]

I agree. In a perfect world, they are very complementary. But if I were forced to pick one, I'd take smoothness. Smooth isnt slow and speed isnt accurate and accurate isnt always smooth.

It is very much a balancing act, but its easier to make a smooth person fast than get a fast person to smooth out.

My experience has shown me otherwise, so I can't agree with those assertions.

But, seeing as accuracy and speed are easily quantifiable, what is a fast speed for you, and which accuracy should be consistently achievable at that speed? A-zone? 6"x6" square? 8" circle? B8 bull?

Here is a vid of a friend shooting some speed drills, Tim Herron - USPSA Grand Master:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNPoMvz1q7c

[Firefly]

My experience has shown me otherwise, so I can't agree with those assertions.

But, seeing as accuracy and speed are easily quantifiable, what is a fast speed for you, and which accuracy should be consistently achievable at that speed? A-zone? 6"x6" square? 8" circle? B8 bull?

Here is a vid of a friend shooting some speed drills, Tim Herron - USPSA Grand Master:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNPoMvz1q7c

Actually I meant to type 'accurate isnt always fast' but was stuck in my loop.

Speed and Accuracy are indeed quantifiable but smoothness and proper form are indeed the bridge.

I will take a quick Alpha-Charlie over a slow Alpha-Alpha if we use IPSC as a measuring stick. With a handgun, we have either been caught off guard or are in a purely defensive mode. Either way we are at a deficit.

I want to create distance or overwhelm and speed is key but a miss is a miss.

Per your second point of order, we are talking about novices. Getting the holster out fast is great but where will the accuracy come from without a good form and technique? Smooth and good form can get faster but getging someone to get more true to proper rigor takes undoing bad habits. I have been guilty of it. I used to be fast but sloppy. It took getting smoothed out to get me more accurate but it wasnt easy as it would have been had I focused on a cleaner draw and target acquisition.

I was certainly getting a passing qual score being fast but I got an even better score and was still able to build speed doing as I was told. I will say that building on those fundamentals avoided me having to shoot someone.

I havent done IPSC in a decade, but that is IPSC. I will say that the timed reactive targets on the Bill Rogers shooting course cut zero slack

This is NOT my video but is same COF that I had to take