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Thread: Any input on stance or anything else?

  1. #71
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    There is no risk involved with being fast getting the gun on target.
    You can still be accurate when getting the gun out fast.

    Also, can you expound on the "that is IPSC" comment? Not sure I understand what you were trying to say.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  2. #72
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    You can be fast and accurate with form and discipline. In the paradigm of a novice shooter finding his footing, too much speed can be deleterious to his accuracy. In regards to target acquisition and target management, you dont want your hand moving faster than your mind can process. I would rather be deliberate with speed than get there fast and try to play mental catch up. That used to be a hang up of mine when I started out and cadre had to slow me down and get me squared away.

    I would hope we have common ground that it is indeed a balancing act of all 3 concepts.

    Per my IPSC comment, I enjoyed it when I had time for it and it is good for shooting with movement but it is still non-representive of combat handgunnery. At its inception, yes. In the modern era, it is a sport.

    I'm not saying not to do it or that it couldnt be good practice but it has become NASCAR with guns as opposed to Rally Car racing. Some of the newer courses of fire are too "gamer" for me but the old holdovers like the El Presidente still have a LOT of merit.

    JMO

  3. #73
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    First off, shooting is shooting. The mechanics are the same regardless of the application (combat, OIS, SD/HD, competition).

    When I was on active duty I was one of the guys shooting the most in my battalion, and when it came to "running and gunning" I was one of the best in my battalion - both in shooting ability and gun handling skills.
    I will just say that I wasn't as good as I first thought I was when I started competing - with rifle and pistol. I was beaten by guys with no tactical background, but that didn't matter - they were just plain better at running the gun than me.

    Being unconsciously competent with your weapon frees up mental capacity to problem solve - regardless of application. That is why I advocate the approach I do, because slow is not smooth, slow is slow.
    As I said in an earlier response, I was of that school of thought too - just be smooth, be consistent and things will just progress naturally. Well, they didn't. It was after I was exposed to Kyle Lamb's videos and egged on by a colleague of mine to go do the same, that I figured that there was more to this.

    Here is a video of me shooting a Bill Drill, with a .40 S&W gun, at 7 meters. I am watching the sights for each shot. I am driving the gun down on target with each shot.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg-cCd4ujkw

    I can do it because I focus on it. I focus on every single detail of what I do when practicing - live or dry fire. Every dry fire draw or mag change I verify my sight picture, my grip (hand position and tension). You gotta be honest, and you can't cheat it. That will show in live fire.

    I understand that you need to build form or technique in the beginning, but my biggest issue is that too many people never progress - they are so afraid of making a mistake, be it fumbling or missing a shot, that they never get out of their comfort zone and really push the boundaries of what they can do. I ask people "how smooth do you have to be before you start pushing?" No one can answer. I have seen it in tons of shooters, form will develop alongside speed. The opposite is not true.

    As far as IPSC/USPSA being gamey goes, depends on your outlook I guess. There are gamer guns, in Standard/Limited and Open, but you can shoot your duty or carry gear in Production or Limited (Gabe White of PF made master shooting a G34 from AIWB in USPSA).

    Also, a stage is a drill. It is not, and must not be confused with a scenario. There is no difference between shooting a stage and shooting a box drill or 2x2x2 or an El Prez. The only difference is that a stage often adds movement between firing positions.
    A drill is working a component skill/technique or several component skills/techniques.

    Mike Pannone posted the following in an FB group where I am a member:

    Mike Pannone Disclaimer-I do not shoot IDPA but still believe most if not all my points would apply.

    First, USPSA or sport shooting overall are not tactics or scenarios they are standardized drills that are shot by a group of marksman to see who can deliver the most efficient energy to the target the fastest which is why the USPSA motto is DVC: “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” meaning Accuracy, Power, and Speed. That is also why we use a hit-factor in USPSA (Points/Time) which gives a relative comparison between shooters as to how effectively per second they can deliver accurate fire. A drill is an exercise of a component or multiple component skills or techniques; it is not a scenario nor tactics. If an officer, soldier or civilian cannot differentiate between a standardized drill shot at a local gun range and a lethal force engagement then the problem is not the competition but the shooter. I was a member of arguably the best assault unit this country has ever created and they were very supportive and encouraging of operational personnel shooting competitively. They would pay all the expenses in doing so and provide guns and ammunition. I have yet to meet a law enforcement officer at a USPSA match or at any training venue I have conducted or attended that has said USPSA has had a detrimental effect on his/her lethal force tactics.


    1 Techniques are methods of accomplishing simple or basic component tasks. They are developed independently, on a micro level as the most efficient or effective method of accomplishing a simple (single) task.
    2 Tactics are an approach to a complex problem using the implementation of a specific set of techniques, allowing an individual or group to solve a dynamic problem yet remain within the principles of an established doctrine.
    3 Principles are fundamental laws, doctrine, or assumptions, also known as specific and/or broad doctrinal rules that always apply, and do not change with the situation. These principles can be accomplished with various tactics which
    are composed of a wide range of techniques. Examples are 360-degree security and over-watch.

    Once component skills are learned and refined (practiced) a scenario is used to practice and evaluate their tactical application. A scenario is an open ended story you are input into somewhere unknown to you in order to see if your skills, knowledge, judgement and composure are sufficient to guide it to a successful conclusion. USPSA does not have subjective standards and special requirements outside of “shoot all the targets as fast and accurately as you can”. There is no better way to validate speed, accuracy and weapons handling then sport shooting and that is fact. I prefer USPSA but any of the sport/action oriented disciplines (USPSA, IDPA, 3-gun, 2-gun, action rifle) are great for anyone who might find themselves in a combative engagement. As to LE applicability, I have met many extremely talented LEO’s that shoot sport…every single one to a man and woman has also been a very good cop.
    I think that words it more eloquently than I can.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  4. #74
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    Arctic,

    Not trying to give you guff, bro. Overall, I actually do agree with you.

    Once someone stops being a neophyte, then they can start pushing. 26 has been through RSS and I am sure he can buttress my thesis.

    I am not putting down IPSC. It has to be somewhat "sporty" to maximize safety. I had fun shooting it, but I just dont have the tine at present(still a member though). It can be good for moving and shooting and what is on paper is on paper. I am just saying that it isn't taking the place of training.

    FWIW, I only did Production because I just wanted to shoot.

    I am merely stating what helped me be efficient that kept me from death or having to deal with an investigation. And I might add that there were some less than pleasant scenarios where my handgun was indeed my main if not only weapon.

    I'm just saying that I used to be a Johnny Slapleather until my narrow self was inculcated into being more form-functioning and then encouraged to go faster.

    On a static range, screwing up dont bother me. On an IPSC match, worst I can do is lose. Woopie-doo. But in a 360, real world environment , there are a few more considerations at hand. This is merely reflective of my training and my experiences. If you were a paratrooper and had strong focus on handgunnery then you have me beat by any measure.


    I am merely the sum of my indoctrination, policies, and tutelage.

    I dont really disagree, I just know what helped me out.

  5. #75
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    Ubet, you can see that there a couple different points of view in here. Regardless of which method you choose to try (or both), a point we can all agree on is to practice and push yourself to keep getting better. One thing I've learned over the years of training and teaching; there is not only ONE way to do something. Arctic and I have used one method, and that has allowed us to improve. Firefly and 26inf have basically done the opposite, and it has helped them improve. Arctic might disagree here, but I don't think any of us are wrong. You find the method that helps you the most. Heck, maybe you could start an offshoot thread specifically about improving drawing speed. Either way, you're at least headed in the right direction.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  6. #76
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    Arctic, sounds like we agree on the big picture. There is as fast as you can go ("fast being beep to shot break) and ensure 100% no fumbles. That is the point we need to know and find.

    New shooters, ime will make the most progress per rounds fired by focusing on basic form and mechanics and efficiency. There will come a point quickly that you plateau and need to push the speed envelope. Yes, form will suffer, but will find its way back in, as long as it's revisited. Much like revisiting the fundamentals on occassion.

    For competitions, I view them as verification of practice. It's a good place to get under pressure and see how you do. It forces you to think, which forces you to have the basics in a bag. The best for me is not about "winning or losing", but about personal improvement. Did I perform well, or did I expect to get an a zone hit on those targets and failed? That shows where you are weak, and didn't realize is and where to work.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 04-22-17 at 19:54.

  7. #77
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    added nothing to the discussion
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 04-22-17 at 22:33.

  8. #78
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    I'm taking an advanced pistol class in 12 days. Of all the suggestions in here, what would be the one or two things I should work on pre class? I was thinking trigger control and drawing.....

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubet View Post
    I'm taking an advanced pistol class in 12 days. Of all the suggestions in here, what would be the one or two things I should work on pre class? I was thinking trigger control and drawing.....

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
    I would say trigger control, and go with an open mind to learn "their way" of doing everything. Then test is vs other stuff on a timer at home.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    I would say trigger control, and go with an open mind to learn "their way" of doing everything. Then test is vs other stuff on a timer at home.
    Thanks. I try to keep a real open mind on stuff like this. I'm paying to be taught, not to argue or contradict

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

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